Hawk Str8Talk's Honesty Corner: Vol. 12
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 4, 2012 4:25 PM EST
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Hawk Str8Talk is back with the Honesty Corner!!! Yes, we're back and it's time to provide our signature weekly article about our fair Hawks. Since everyone and their mama wants to do a game recap these days (and none do it better than Peachtree Hoops), it's up to me to say what everyone says they want, but aren't always ready to hear (as in don't tell your significant other how they really look in those jeans). So, it's time to read the disclaimer below and then, let's go....
Disclaimer: As always, all criticisms come after blaming the Atlanta Spirit Group first, management second, and then coaches and players last. Those criticisms come through the prism of winning championships (or the things that result in championship team building).
Truth 1. Jeff Teague is the #1 key to this season (like he was last season).
Everyone knows that I created the Jeff Teague Fan Club, then built a bus with my blog boo, CoCo, and we rode around town for a full year getting eggs and bird droppings all over it before we finally started getting the rest of the Hawk fans to jump onboard. The bus is now on blocks because it's too many folks claiming how much they love Jeff Teague and why he should have been starting since he was at Wake Forest. It's so bad that former Peachtree Hoops blogger, Drew, retired after being so famously wrong about Mike Bibby's value to the Hawks (or at least that's how I recall it). And yet, it's still true that the Hawks will not be a factor in the playoffs in a point guard driven league without Jeff Teague being a major cog on this team. He can potentially be the 3rd most important player for this team (yes, I believe he can mean more than Al Horford) and he's already pushing to be the difference between another uninspired run through the playoffs or serving notice that the Hawks should be respected like the rest of the Eastern Conference contenders.
Truth 2. Larry Drew doesn't trust Marvin Williams to close basketball games.
Has Marvin done anything to not trust him to be a great contributor throughout the game. I could have missed that, but the lack of faith is puzzling since Marvin has played better than I've ever seen. This is evidenced by how quickly Marvin is pulled and how long it takes to get him back in the game. His 4th quarter minutes are uh...lacking. Last year, that was acceptable (desirable even), but this isn't last year. This year, he has showed that he actually could make a mockery of my 3 year plea to make him our 6th man. The sample size is small, but so far - Marvin Williams and crunch time minutes are not a mix.
Truth 3. If the bench gets any better, it's time to trade Kirk Hinrich.
This is probably a good time to mention that Jamal Crawford is not going to be missed. Watching players who can do more than just hit baskets will be a welcome sight and I honestly believe that by All Star weekend - we'll wonder why we ever fell in love Jamal. The bench so far is much more versatile and complete early this season. McGrady has been great. Zaza has been steady. V-Rad has shown flashes. Pargo and Green can't get any worse (on knees praying), so there's room for growth. We could even see if Donald Sloan or Ivan Johnson actually have reason to be played this season. And if that's the case, Kirk Hinrich (like Jamal Crawford) makes too much money to keep him, so it's much more valuable to the franchise to either trade him for a big man or for a cheaper alternative and draft picks in what is projected to be the deepest draft in the last 5 years. So, that we're clear - I like Kirk Hinrich, but if you aren't going to go over the luxury tax, then every player must be evaluated based on their production to salary ratio and he makes too much to be a backup. C'mon bench - show Kirk the door.
Truth 4. Josh Smith is regressing & Al Horford has become Chuck Hayes good (these are not compliments).
Pains me to say this, but Josh is our most talented player and yet, he's playing worse than I've ever seen him. It's like his basketball IQ has regressed on the offensive end more than ever. More jump shots, more dribbling on the break. It's just maddening, but what's just as maddening is watching Al Horford turn into Chuck Hayes on the offensive end of the court. Short of running past centers - I am not sure if we're watching the same games, but Horford has just become a really solid guy who we all want to be some sort of star. Calling him an All Star just inflates our expectations of Al, but in reality - expecting him to put up a 20-10 when it's needed is becoming a fading pipe dream. As I said while watching him tonight, if you have Ronnie Brewer on your hip and you can't take him into the paint and abuse him, then PROBLEMA, Senor Horford! I know Bret at Hoopinion is his #1 fan and strident proponent of his being the best the Hawks have to offer, but even accounting for his all around abilities - I don't see anything more than a taller, better version of Chuck Hayes. And that's not what I signed up for...
Truth 5. Nobody turns a fast break into a jump shot like the Hawks.
I'm not sure if I'm the only person who sees this as a problem, but I can't for the life of me fathom why we shoot jump shots on at least half of our transition opportunities. I mean if you're passing them to Ray Allen, fine. To Kevin Martin or Stephen Curry or any dead eye shooter, okey dokey! But I think we all know that there's no one we're trusting with a stop and pop, so can we just increase the odds of the layup or at a minimum the foul and show why running is a good thing for this squad. (Not to mention telling Jeff to just start taking the ball from Josh and Al when they start dribbling on a break and I do mean take..like steal the ball from them until the message is clear).
And with that note, that's this week's 5 Truths....agree or disagree if you must, but if it's the Honesty Corner, then it can't be lies. See you in the comments...
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No matter how you want to be...
you are not the originator of the Jeff Teague fan club, lol. Don’t know if you were on this blog when he was a rookie, but there were plenty of times we wanted Jeff to get minutes that mattered, especially against quicker guards. Overall, I agree with all except 4. Horford will be fine and Josh will be fine (I hope) unless he will be the cause of the Hawks isolations, just because they don’t want to pass to him on the perimeter.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
stand corrected
I went back to the archives to see what the true sentiment was – it was mostly Bibby Start, Teague more minutes (though not a lot of that minutes matter and quick guards stuff), some you’re crazy, and me and CoCo saying at first – it’s an alternative that should be explore and then later – yep, he should start – everyone quit being scared.
The scary part is how many really didn’t see the Mike BIbby collapse coming. I mean where is he now – at the END of the Knicks bench. He had maybe the worst postseason for a guard in NBA history last year. I mean we talked about how no games were being lost because of Bibby – all straight lunacy and even a few comments about how terrible it would be to throw Teague into the fire in the postseason and that he couldn’t possibly make us better for some time. The worst part of it all was the insistence that he’d always have year 2 and that they obviously would start him. To Woody’s credit (and we know he easily could have lied on this), but after that season – he did say that Teague would start last year. Even HE saw how awful Bibby was in the playoffs and that his last days were upon him.
Anyway, it wasn’t as much of me being the only bus driver, but I probably wanted the most from him. I wasn’t just asking for minutes – I was saying … I need to see at LEAST 25 minutes+ and him playing with the starters. I think that could have prevented us from unwisely spending money and possibly called for a better team to take to last year’s team (with a first round draft pick to boot). Moving on..
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 5, 2012 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
Not so much
I was absolutely on this blog. I had a complete blog war with Drew about the fact that I said Jeff Teague should have been starting his rookie season – not just minutes that mattered. That was me. And I was eviscerated here and everywhere else for that stance. I stood by it then and stand by it now. If you’d like to go back thru the archives, feel free. Now, that said – trust me, I am happy to have some co-fan club presidents, but I don’t remember anyone standing up for me back then – except CoCo. It was a Bibby love fest up in here. Last year, no, but the year before – absolutely.
As for #4, it’s the first 2 weeks and I hope they both will be, but I’m not really saying that Horford is regressing – I’m saying that this is as good as he is. He’s not a dynamic dominating force in the NBA. He’s a guy who is a jack of all trades, but master of none and I think we’ve been fooled into thinking that All Star status means he’s a star. I tend to disagree. As I always mention, he’s really only had about 5 games in his career where i watched the game and said – that dude was by far the best player on the court tonight and there’s nothing anyone could do with him. I mean last night he had Ronnie Brewer in the post and didn’t know what to do with him. That’s just ridiculous. As for Josh, I just think Josh is always going to be up and down as long as Drew is his coach. He needs a Popovich to get the best out of him consistently. My longstanding notion about Josh is that he’s never been coached by someone he respected – not high school, not AAU, no college, and certainly not by Woodson or Drew. So, this is the result. Wish I could say otherwise.
Hawk Str8Talk
I do remember what you say
And frankly I was not on board with your position. I thought you were a radical :-)
I think what maxxj3 remembers, is that majority wanted Bibby to start(including me), but Teague should get minutes.
If I remember correctly, you were a proponent of him starting.
You may have seen it before me and most, but we certainly agree on Teague must be the starting point now. I only hope LD lets the young man play like he is meant to do, which is attack, attack…
I think most of the people wanted teague to get jamal minutes
I do remember there was a a game last year were jordan crawford was put in before teague. it was during that game that I lost all respect for LD and wanted to grab my pitchfork
"A ‘No’ uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a ‘Yes’ merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble."
Mohandas Gandhi
"We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give."
Winston Churchill
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"
Jesus
"We were real solid on both ends of the floor today and had positive energy coming from the bench tonight."
Jeff Teague
This is true and I remember that
I think LD has a difficult time with Teague’s style. He is much more of a traditionalist when it comes to point guards. Ones that can shoot and provide assists. He sees value in Teague, but has difficulty fitting Teague into his idea of what a point guard should be.
What he does not get, is there are few Derons, and CP3s who can do it all. There are most time compromises, like Rondo and Rubio, who provide great assists but less scoring, or athletic points like Westbrook and Rose.
LD must come to realization that Teague is the athletic type, but can help Hawks nevertheless and in time, his vision gets better. He has only started like less than 20 games for us
That was my thought
Bibby start, Teague more minutes. Give him the majority of minutes against quick Gs and when playing well. Reasoning being two fold: 1) See what we got with Teague for moving forward (as well as letting him develop on the floor if he proved worthy) and 2) Keep Bibby fresher for the playoffs when games actually matter.
http://sportsandgrits.com/
by Mr. Sanchez on Jan 5, 2012 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
but to expand
I guess I could just point to last nights game and be done with it.
but to remind all, I was always for Teague getting more minutes, just not starting.
And that 2009-2010 season, yes the one when he was only a rookie, Atlanta won 53 games, scored 100 points a game, and had an offensive efficiency of almost 114. Both far higher than this season.
Defense has certainly improved but as we saw last night, Teague is not the sole reason for that and in fact, last night shows he is sometimes the problem. As a rookie, I can assume it would have only been worse.
Continually harping on Teague starting two years ago and not just lamenting the Hawks failed attempt to give him much needed experience sounds like a move out of Washington DC with a politician looking for a sound bite. Larry, you are right, Teague is the key to the season. You are very wrong, it has nothing to do with him starting or not starting in 2009.
Not starting this again, but
we’re going to disagree on this. I said in the article and the comments – you all presume that Bibby was some sort of key. It’s like those people who talk so glowingly about Jamal when he hits a 4 point play and forget that there are players who don’t hit those, but actually play defense, get boards, make assists and do other things to impact the game. My complete point then and made clear even on a night like last night was – Mike Bibby is NOT AN ANSWER. he was NOT the reason we won 53 games. He was not the reason we had an off. efficiency. Period. Now, I understand that we disagree on this, but I know you made a point to say – we weren’t losing games because Mike Bibby was starting. My point was the opposite – Mike Bibby wasn’t important to any wins PERIOD. So, I agree completely that he’s still green and you want to know why – because he’s still a rookie in many ways. The growing pains we’re dealing with now are things we should have been dealing with THEN. Norris Cole is going to suck during some games this season, but he’s already shown (as Teague did) that he actually can WIN a game. So, your point still doesn’t hold for me and never will.
I harp on it with you for fun, but if I was to say it to the Hawks organization it would be to highlight that the approach we have to young players is awful. And it’s short sighted. It’s built off some belief that we have enough to contend as constituted. I said then – I don’t care if we win 60 games – this team is built to FLAME out. What did it do – flame out. How much did BIbby contribute to that? Lots…So, we’re going to never agree if your point is that him starting mattered. Him being considered the head of the snake and getting the respect of that team mattered greatly and the fact that people didn’t see that then or see it now will continue to accept less than the full potential of this team. So, yes – Teague is going to have an up and down year. Book it and his up and down year is going to be better than anything Bibby did in 09-10.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 6, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
About Norris
So, unless mario chalmers plays like he played last night all the time, Norris Cole will be the starting point guard for the Heat because I think they get it. Get him burn now, then give him the keys. Thats what should have happened for us. UNLESS we actually were a contender – which we weren’t..at least not in my mind.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 6, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
seriously
I believe the site was cut down the middle with mike bibby. I for one wanted teague to play more starting his rookie year. I do remember people saying that it would be best if bibby would start for some time then start halfway through his rookie year but definetly by year 2 he should start. I know for one i wanted him to start last year but i apparently must of missed these massive arguments that you say there were with this issue.
"A ‘No’ uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a ‘Yes’ merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble."
Mohandas Gandhi
"We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give."
Winston Churchill
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"
Jesus
"We were real solid on both ends of the floor today and had positive energy coming from the bench tonight."
Jeff Teague
I think I might have been on the Jeff Teague should see the floor club.
1. Yes he is, but as long as Larry Drew continues to waver on him being the starter we will have a problem. He needs the reins to control traffic and the whip power to keep josh from acting like a point guard.
2. Marvin Williams started off attacking, started off hitting shots and was the leading scorer for our team when he was taken off the court. All I want is a coach who is willing to play the right players at the right time, despite his substitutions patterns.
3. I am not sure about this Kirk Hinrich trade, if we continue to play like we are right now, then I am keeping Hinrich he could be a main cog for a run at a championship (cannot believed i just said that), but the hawks really are playing well and if this continues kirk hinrich will be needed. I do think that we should make a move to get a high draft pick, but that should come from…
4. Josh Smith or Al Horford. Personally, hello new coach, goodbye Al Horford.
5.Josh Smith the main fast break threat likes to have the ball in his hands to lead the break, nothing more need to be said. I do trust Marvin Williams with the pull up J.
- couldn’t we use Pape Sy right now? slashing to the basket, playing defense providing energy and fouls?
- should Tmac have played at all last night. They said his knee was swollen before the game.
Smith should not be the 4 anymore. The 4 is the trailer. Smith has no ability to shoot as a trailer.
He also has a flawed halfcourt game so he likes to have the ball in his hand to see what mismatches he can draw early in the break.
Ideally the 4/5 (not Marvin, not Vlad) provides boards against Boozer/Noah types and gets the board and lets Smith leak out. Teague gets the outlet pass and is looking.
Without being stuck under the basker Smith fills the wing lane homing in on the rim. Nothing going and Teague still has Joe + PF who can post up or trail for 3.
Smith + center crash. Teague slash. Smith fast breaks, Joe + PF trailing.
Showtime Basketball baby! I said Smith was bad outside of PnR and garbage points ie offensive putbacks vs smaller SFs. IIrc I also said Horford was a bigger Chuck Hayes but no one listens, because I was supposedly hating.
They had similar games. I will say that Horford has been playing very very well and we should wait after this game and CHI
to evaluate the team’s ability to meet our championship expectations.
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 5, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Why Smoove looks like he is regressing and Marvin
First on Marvin, hey I can’t blame LD for pulling him kind of quick. True Marvin is playing well, but dude has had seven years worth of opportunities that he has not taken advantage of. So it takes more than a few games to turn it around. We have to wait
Second, why is Smoove looking out of sorts? Let’s ask that question with another question.
Would DeAndre Jordan look out of sorts playing for Hawks now? How much worse would Blake look with Hawks?
My point, Smoove is a flying athletic beast, who preys on mere mortals when given opportunity. When you leave him out there to play like a mortal, he shows up like a mortal and less. He needs Teague to step his game up. While I am a fan of Teague, I see most alley oops come from Lion or JJ or T-Mac, not Teague.
Smoove gets his blood pumping, the crowd going when being athletic. No different than DeAndre and Blake. Now they have CP3 to give them the ball where they can prey on the mortals.
Smoove needs Teague to step up, to show how great Smoove is. Remember the alley oops with the slow Bibby? Where have those gone? If anything, Smoove is even more athletic than past few years. He has not regressed. He just does not have a co-pilot that knows him well enough and what a fine tune machine he is. When I see comments putting him down constantly, I know those are mere mortals that can never relate to a flying Hawk. These are people that when they see a Ferrari they run away because the engine makes too much noise and rather have a Accord, never knowing the joy of a fine tuned sports car that takes talent to drive
Josh Smith cefinitely has a Ferrari
He just tends to park it in unsavory neighborhoods all the freaking time, so the paint job is always getting messed up.
Braves will be fine. I'm not worried.
by Bronn on Sep 18, 2011 4:26 PM EDT
by Bronn on Jan 5, 2012 2:48 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Still haven't seen a patented thunder dunk and dont think we will. Smith still has those knee pads/braces. Not as much raw athleticism as before.
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 5, 2012 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
Hard to throw a man an alley...
…when he’s camped out at the 3pt line.
Go Big Red, Falcons, Braves & Hawks.
i luv my team but the issues are glaring jj needs to be more selfish and ataack often horford need to stay by the freethrow line and stop shooting 20 foot jumpers with no one to rebound and josh is still josh i would tarde him and al for d12, and if i see this team stay at 50% at the freethrow imma pull my hair out there losing damn games at the ft line i mean come on but we r still a good team just got to do and get better….. glad i found a site to vent on #gohawks
Still getting no love after knocking off last year's Eastern conference champs
Will making it back to the Eastern Conference Semis give Larry Drew another year at the helm?
Smoove is Josh's worst enemy
Josh would be a dominant player if he would stop trying to prove that he can be a complete player.
I like Josh for all the positive things he does for the Hawks. I appreciate his confidence in his game BUT sometimes being a player with a small skill set can make you just as dominant as being a player with a broader skill set.
As Hubie Brown would say, Josh Smith excels when he is in the painted area.
So WHY on earth would he want to leave that place???
He can do no wrong in the paint.
Instead, he likes to hang out on the perimeter, spot up for jumpers, try to make sensational passes, lead the fast break, shoot threes and really long twos, etc etc
It’s like he desperately wants to be LBJ.
Larry needs to get control of this guy. It’s nice that Josh puts work in on his game, but Larry needs to stress that those other skills should be used only as a backup plan. Plan A is to attack the rim and dominate in the paint.
His teammates also need to stop enabling him.
I wouldn’t give him the ball unless he is inside 15ft.
Way too often I see Al grab a rebound, turn, and pass it to Josh to lead the break.
Or they pass it to him when he’s outside the 3pt line.
You don’t pour an alcoholic another drink, you take the bottle away from him.
At this point, I don’t think that a deep playoff run to the ECF or even to the finals is out of reach for this team. But to get there it’s going to take a lot more good Josh than bad Josh.
I think the Hawks will be pretty good on those nights bad Josh shows up, due to the emergence of Teague, Marvin and much improved bench. But pretty good doesn’t win in the playoffs.
I still have hope that Josh can realize his potential, but I’m afraid it’s gonna take a better coach than Larry Drew and a stronger locker room leader than Joe. Somebody has to tell that dude “NO”.
Since that’s not going to happen, let’s hope Teague keeps getting better and Marvin keeps playing like he doesn’t want to get amnestied!
It's like all my game thread comments put into paragraph form.
I'm on the Twitter: twitter.com/edgrohl
#3
Overall I agree with all but point #3. TMac has been a nice surprise and overall the bench looks more solid than I think most of us could have hoped for. However, my gut feeling is that Kirk will be needed as the season unfolds, and could be a good contributor in the playoffs. He’s also a great insurance policy if TMac wears down or anyone suffers an injury.
Another aspect is that coming off an injury, the Hawks would likely have to sell low to get a deal done. If Sund could figure out a way to deal him for a suitable bench replacement with a longer contract window, my thoughts on this might change.
Great Point
This point is definitely contingent on getting good trade value for Kirk. A first round draft pick or a perimeter defender for the low would be desirable. Let’s not forget that this offseason has some GREAT players available. Having flexibility to go after D-Howard or others would be highly desirable, so this is as much about that as anything.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 5, 2012 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
Is There still hope that chemistry and depth and saving minutes wins out against rest of the league and results in HCA?. and I mean 1 or 2 seed.
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
"Nobody turns a fast break into a jump shot like the Hawks."
I actually think this is less of a problem this year. Which is a maddening commentary on how bad it has been for the last four or five years.
What? Have you watched these games...
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 5, 2012 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
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