Hawks vs. Spurs Final Score: San Antonio Spurs 105, Atlanta Hawks 83
by Jason Walker on Jan 25, 2012 10:46 PM EST
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Teague was not sloppy
He is playing ball. Not sure if LD realizes Teague is a new breed of point guard. Think Westbrook and Rose. Certainly not in that league yet, but very close.
If there is a positive out of this game, is Kirk shooting is still solid. We should start dangling him out there for Lakers and like. That may have been the only logic in playing him the minutes he got tonight as Teague was taken out while Parker was left in.
In the larger scheme of things, we can afford this loss as long as Zaza is not penalized for that foul with a suspension.
What big man do you think Hinrich could bring? Okafor?
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 25, 2012 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
No he is too expensive, though I like him
I think there were some good ones offered the other night on a thread
My 3-way Kirk to the Lakers trade of the day
Kirk to the Lakers, Lakers’ 2nd round pick to the Thunder, Nazr Mohammed to the Hawks
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7guyyk9
twitter.com/fakericksund
by NajehDavenpoop on Jan 25, 2012 11:02 PM EST reply actions
Replace Nazr Mohammed with any other big man from any other team and that trade still works, although depending on how good the big man is it would probably require more/better picks being sent to the 3rd team.
twitter.com/fakericksund
by NajehDavenpoop on Jan 25, 2012 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
I stay off twitter but I must say your recent tweets are hilarious. Helps take off the sting.
I know I seem like an @ss for this but here goes…
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7v9t6cm
no Motiejunas but we get 2 expiring big men. Only time Hashish played was 4 minutes against San Antonio and Jordan Hill is a good rebounder but really is a PF.
Hinrich, Pargo, McGrady, Green is a logjam, we get younger bigs and honestly worth a shot to me.
And anyone know whats up with Al Thornton? Mike Cunningham’s twitter said ASG saw him as a SF/PF. Thats what people said of Kawhi.
So stupid. Unless this guy is in some legal trouble sign Al Thornton for a veteran with athleticism off the bench or to start.
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 25, 2012 11:12 PM EST up reply actions
That’s not a bad trade either. I still think Thabeet is a scrub and the Hawks can do better, but Hill at least rebounds and blocks shots fairly well.
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by NajehDavenpoop on Jan 25, 2012 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
dude
u want our thabeet, we’d be happy to let you have ‘im. But I don’t see what Hinrich would be doing in Houston – not with Lowry, Dragic and Lee before him. Plus McHale only plays 8-man rotations or something.
no he's the only one that wants thabeet
dont think all of us are like that
Ivan Johnson does not buy ground beef, he just takes a whole cow, runs it through his beard, and fully cooked hamburgers come out.
Would you really be surprised if this guy ended up in a Hawks uniform? Really?
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 26, 2012 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
I'd be shocked
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by Kris Willis on Jan 26, 2012 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
What? We don't have any other options. Ivan Johnson is a 6'8 D-League Forward playing center. If you're gonna foul at least make sure they don't hit the shot you know,
We just started Jason Collins for how many games? And he’s about ready to retire.
I’ll save the rest of my response for Mr. Grohl.
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 26, 2012 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't say that the Hawks didn't need a center
I said that I would be shocked if Thabeet ended up in an Atlanta uniform
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by Kris Willis on Jan 26, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
Thabeet is a horrible player.
He hasn’t even averaged ONE block through his career. He has little to no basketball skills. All he has is height. He puts up less numbers than Jon Koncak.
Twitter: twitter.com/edgrohl Google+: Ed G
+1 for the Jon Koncak reference
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by Kris Willis on Jan 26, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
glad im not the only one
Ivan Johnson does not buy ground beef, he just takes a whole cow, runs it through his beard, and fully cooked hamburgers come out.
I hear ya. He plays less minutes than Jon Koncak.
And I’m not going to sit here and argue that Thabeet has more basketball skills than the guys capable of playing center in front of him thru his career:
- Marc Gasol (drafted)
- Zach Randolph (drafted)
- Chuck Hayes (in front via trade)
- Sam Dalembert (Free Agent signing)
But I will tell you, truthfully how scoring skill is overrated and defense overlooked.
In the case of Brook Lopez the big man is actually slower coming back on defense and offense, and incapable of defense and rebounding. Unless he plays on a team with All World Defense this guy will be massively overpaid by somebody.
Win Shared per 48 minutes is a # based off of Team Defensive and Offensive Efficiency when you are on the floor.
Basketball Reference has it as decimals but breaking it down to Percentages.
Jason Collins this year is averaging 1.8% Win Shared per 48 minutes. That means he’s not even on pace to win us 1 game this season.
Thabeet for his career is 9.2%. 9,2% vs 1.8%. For his career Thabeet is FIVE Times better than what Jason Collins is giving us.
This is all on a per minute basis, of course and it does take into account fouls. Which is always the Big question, with Thabeet. How many minutes can he play without fouling?
Kurt Thomas:———— 11.5% Wins
Zaza Pachulia:———9.8% (15.1% so far this year)
Hasheem Thabeet:-9.2%
Jamal Crawford:——7.4% (6.2% this year)
Jason Collins:———-6.6% (1.8% this year)
If you look at the truly great centers it shows you the less shots they take and contribute with high percentage shots the better the team.
As brutally honest as it is, With a center, this # shows that Skill oftentimes has nothing to do with winning. Jason Collins and Jamal Crawford neck in neck in winning?
You just need the defense the tip ins and to keep Tiago Splitter out the damn lane! lol. No the one game I saw Thabeet play was 4 minutes vs Houston. Duncan struggled with his height, as did Splitter.
But again, in terms of winning ball games you (and I think the franchise) are overrating skill. You can win by good wings but you need to get a big, who gets you easy paint layups/extra tip outs and offensive boards and clogs the paint on defense. Nothing more nothing less.
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 26, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly that is a long post and probably an overreaction. But its just getting outmatched in the paint every game like that is so frustrating. And the players are sulking and showing bad body language and chemistry too. .
Its just so frustrating. Why put our guys in these horrible situations and say go represent Atlanta.
I mean the center situation. Anytime you play basketball you protect the paint and rebound and when you can’t do that its demoralizing as a fan and as a player the best word is probably emasculating. We got undressed yesterday. Best way to put it.
Ivan Johnson is no center and was ready to chuck the ball yesterday. The team chemistry was just off. This was Duncan and Splitter but what happens if we get to the playoffs and still have no size at center to match them up?
Last I heard Sund was looking at Kenyon Martin to play center…. What? If that’s the case I’d rather have Rasheed Wallace.
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 26, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
dude got beasted by Dejuan Blair in college
and Thabeet had a major height and “wingspan” advantage
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
Dejuan Blair was 300 lbs. He is built like Wes Unseld with more skill. But whatever.
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 26, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Legit question alert: Is Thornton still a free agent?
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missed this one. Yeah. My speculation:
- Legal baggage
- Out of shape
- realistically he was tagged with low IQ/tweener role because of shooting ability (yet Popovich has a college 3/4 playing the 2 guard)
Al Thornton is hopeful that he’ll sign with the Nuggets.
“We’ll see. Hopefully. We’ll see,” Thornton said when asked about his chances of agreeing to a deal with Denver. If he is signed, Thornton should act as depth off the bench on a depleted front line. Dec 5 – 2:56 PM
Well this one says Thornton has “basketball insanity”. Never seemed like a headcase, so I think that unfairly questions his IQ.
http://www.celticstown.com/2011/12/22/celtics-likely-to-leave-one-roster-spot-open-for-free-agent-acquisition/
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 26, 2012 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
Didn't the Wizards release him last year?
Like right after he had that monster dunk on Pachulia that got replayed for about a week or am I thinking about someone else?
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by Kris Willis on Jan 26, 2012 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
Might have been. He ended his season with the Warriors.
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Josh Smith * Rasheed Wallace * Al Horford *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 26, 2012 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
It may work with the trade machine
But why would any of these teams make this trade?
Lakers’ motivation? They need a point guard who can play D and knock down shots. Kirk fits the bill.
Hawks’ motivation? They need big man depth. Mohammed is a big body and gets boards, will provide more quality minutes than Collins and probably also Ivan, and costs relatively little.
Thunder motivation? Mohammed is a fringe player in their rotation anyway, since he plays behind Perkins and Collison.
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by NajehDavenpoop on Jan 25, 2012 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
I hear ya but...
You’re right about the Lakers. They would get a quality guard and only give up a late 2nd round pick. But the Lakers are looking to make a big trade like for D12 or Deron Williams. That pick could be packaged for a bigger/better trade for them…..
Hawks need a big man for sure. But having two point guards that are both capable of starting isn’t a bad thing. You can’t give up a starting caliber point guard for a big man that is at best a fringe rotation player. Would you rather have Nazr Mohammed or Kirk Hinrich if Jeff Teague were to sprain his ankle? 3pts and 3rebs in 13mins is nothing you should give up kirk Hinrich to get.
Bigs are rare. Productive bigs are even rarer. Teams that have them aren’t looking to give them up. Kwame Brown getting 7mil for this season speaks volumes as to how difficult it is to get a big man with half a pulse right now.
The Hawks have an All Star Center. He’s just hurt.
They just have to be patient and stay the course.
Having Nazr absolutely doesn’t help the Hawks once Al comes back and probably doesn’t help all that much now. Having Kirk helps now AND when Al comes back.
And Thunder wouldn’t give up Nazr for the same reason you want to get him……because he’s big. He’s an insurance policy in case one of their bigs gets hurt.
A 2nd round pick from a playoff team like the Lakers does little if anything to help them in the future and losing Nazr could hurt them now if Perkins( bad knee) gets hurt again.
Agree with you 100%
Centers are overvalued in the current market, and for the price that the ASG would be willing to spend we could on get a space filler who’d be minutely more productive than Twin.
I have to admit though, Kirk may be the odd man out if we do need to upgrade (due to his expiring contact and the better than expected play from Willie Green and at times Pargo), but the talk of him being worth just a play-off team’s 2nd round pick doesn’t seem worth just off-loading his contract mid-season.
Ivan Johnson - the new Xavier McDaniel
LD was unbelievably awful tonight.
- Pop was taking timeouts anytime it looked like we might make a run
- LD didn’t do shit, but sit on his hands and watch things fall apart
- Tonight wasn’t the night to give Kirk extended minutes, maybe tomorrow against Detroit, but not tonight
- LDs substitution patterns were terrible
- LD should have gotten a T when Marv was called for that bullshit charge call
- Refs are gonna continue to give us the hose until someone other than the players take up for us
by BravesFanScout on Jan 25, 2012 11:13 PM EST reply actions
the josh chrage made me pissed
Ivan Johnson does not buy ground beef, he just takes a whole cow, runs it through his beard, and fully cooked hamburgers come out.
Sorry guys, but I could have scripted out what many of you were going to say before ever coming in here
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By the way, Kirk played 13 minutes last night
That is not extended minutes, Pargo would have been a DNP-CD had it not been for the blow out. Pargo’s five minutes would have went to Teague and he would have been in the ball park of his season average for minutes.
Is it that hard to figure out?
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If we are comparing it to what Pargo usually gets (11.8 minutes) and the fact that Kirk Hinrich he was tired because he hasn't played in so long,
and considering the opponent, 13 minutes was way to long. And those extended minutes came posthaste without him earning it back from Pargo.
It stinks of what Larry Drew did to Teague last year.
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 26, 2012 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
I disagree
There is no comparison from Pargo to Hinrich. He shouldn’t have to earn anything back in that race. Now if it is Hinrich-Teague then yeah he needs to improve but Hinrich has done nothing to lose playing time to Pargo.
This had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of last night’s game and shouldn’t have even been brought up in my opinion. Its just one of those cases where we are looking for something to complain about and thought hey that looks good lets throw that out there.
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by Kris Willis on Jan 26, 2012 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
I agree that Kirk's minutes wasn't part of the problem.
Drew’s substitution patterns still are baffling. I don’t think he understands match ups in his rotation. He just tries to get fresh bodies on the floor. Against most of the league that may fly, but we had some terrible matches in the fourth quarter.
by RamblininAlb on Jan 26, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
Drew has gotten outcoached by Doug Collins and now Pop.
Did we hear anything about Drew quitting. I think he did. He rode the starters against Milwaukee’s bench but didn’t against a really good San Antonio team. LD may have picked this game to rest the starters in a effort to make sure they would be fresh and ready to take the last three of the road trip, but he could he could have seen if they could get back into the game at least.
by jdewayneatl on Jan 26, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
so what im understanding is that you guys want to trade kirk
after playing 1 game and being off for around 8 months? fantastic
Ivan Johnson does not buy ground beef, he just takes a whole cow, runs it through his beard, and fully cooked hamburgers come out.
I’ve been wanting to trade Kirk since the second round playoff series last year. He has an expiring contract, the Hawks desperately needed big man depth even before Al got injured, and Teague is better anyway. No offense to Kirk but he is a luxury, not a necessity, whereas the center position desperately needs an upgrade.
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by NajehDavenpoop on Jan 25, 2012 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
we have too many guards. For all the talk of Kirk's defense I don't think he's going to help us score inside, protect the paint or rebound.
He’s a facilitator but do we have anyone to facilitate?
Just another case of us pursuing big names regardless of team strengths or weaknesses.
We got beat up inside and it was ugly. Kirk cant fix that and has become redundant.
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 25, 2012 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
That tie says it all
I touched the garment of Ivan Johnson and I saw the Rapture
by a hooter's baby on Jan 25, 2012 11:22 PM EST reply actions
Honestly didnt think we would win this one
but hoped we would of put up a decent fight.
Ivan Johnson does not buy ground beef, he just takes a whole cow, runs it through his beard, and fully cooked hamburgers come out.
Wood-drew strikes
So, throw out tonight’s loss, we don’t play well in San Antonio, so I didn’t really expect a win, but I look at the season as our way to build toward a title. We’ve actually done well enough to rethink my belief that we were 100% not able to win a 2nd round series, but then I watched the 3rd quarter and forget how bad we were, but Popovich showed just how much better he is and why a less talented Spurs team can be more dangerous because of the coach ALONE. It only TWO possessions for him to recognize that his starters didn’t have it in the 3rd quarter before he said – I don’t care if this loses us the game – that bench wants to play tonight and challenged THEM to win it. And guess what – they did. Destroyed the Hawks.
This is an example of just how valuable a great coach can be. Can you win without talent, absolutely not? But when the talent is close – the coach matters. Our coach is terrible. Pop was working the refs and his team and it has made him a 3-time champ. if you have to answer to Pop or Drew on a charge call, who do you think you are going to side with on a 50/50 call? So, it’s a game like tonight that shows why Drew is not the coach to take us to the next level (and no, we don’t have the pieces to get there with the right coach), but I know that on a night like tonight when Josh was bad Josh – he’d be sitting with Pop and not on the court with a coach who is just living with bad Josh and hoping that something different will happen when bad Josh shows up. Anyway, it’s what I hate about our coaching situation. You’d think our coach had been on staff for the past 7 years and would know our team. These awful 3rd quarters should be easy to spot. maybe it’s Drew’s halftime speech – I don’t know, but I know on a night like tonight – I feel like 13-6 is fool’s gold…
Hawk Str8Talk
ha so you just said in paragraph format what I said the whole game
LD sucks
Ivan Johnson does not buy ground beef, he just takes a whole cow, runs it through his beard, and fully cooked hamburgers come out.
Smh. Popovich putting Danny Green at PG. Kawhi Leonard at SG. Why Drew does not start Vlad? idk. Its hurting our bench and starters
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 26, 2012 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
AW DAMN,DAMN,DAMMMMMMN
The hawks won’t win EVERY game,so there is no need to blow last nights loss outta proportion ….the Heat, Bulls,Thunder, and Magic will all get their a#*handed to them @some point during the season.Point being, We are 13-6, not 6-13!
"I'm on 1"
by I am usually right except when... on Jan 26, 2012 6:16 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Games like this one and vs Philly are pretty much what I expected on the road vs playoff contenders when Horford went out.
I expect games like this any time we play
Regardless of who the opponent is or if Al is available or not. That’s why the media loves us so much
really?
you expected the bench of an above average team to whoop the starters on an above average team – 2 of which barely played this season. In both games, it was the bench on the starters that causes me concern. If the other team’s starters and our bench cause the loss -I put that on Horford a bit, but in this case – it didn’t really have to do with Horford in that 3rd quarter…not to get a beat down. A loss ok, but a bench led beatdown…that’s something else.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 26, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
is this the consesus?
"I was not expecting them to go off as well as they did," Hawks coach Larry Drew said of San Antonio’s bench, which outscored Atlanta’s reserves 51-27. yahoo sports
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
But when they did
what the hell did you do to stop it? Nada…
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 26, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
I think we needed some Jason tonight
Zaza can’t play consistent everynight and we need someone to do some dirty work. When Zaza goes out we’re extremely small. Teague got 20pts but no assists, Joe got 7 assists but no rebounds, Josh attempted 17 shots but only got to the line once…..yeah I didn’t watch the game but this tells the tale
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
Also
I think pargo should have split the minutes with Kirk since he was coming back off an injury. Pargo has been in rhythm with the second team the whole season and pushes the ball everytime he brings it up.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
by maxxj3 on Jan 26, 2012 10:02 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We are really speaking up for Pargo now?
I need to go back a few game threads. How soon we forget
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by Kris Willis on Jan 26, 2012 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
i was never against him
he’s not the greatest of defenders and not really a spot up shooter, but pushing the ball up and playing halfway decent defense and is a lot faster than Kirk. I think Kirk is a good shooter and defender but there’s no speed
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
I feel like Hinrich is twice the player Pargo is
If Hinrich is healthy then he needs to play and the Hawks will have to give him some minutes to work the rust off.
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agreed
i’m for MORE Kirk minutes for two reasons – either one to see him play super well to drive up his trade value OR to get the rust off to make a ECF run, but either way he needs to be the dude. For those who are against Pargo, I’ll simply say – Stackhouse is not doing anything for this team on the court, so unless he’s holding the entire locker room together by himself – he can be cut as soon as we have a viable big man to sign.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 26, 2012 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
pargo has magically gotten in rythm the last 2 games
before that Timberwolves game he has been god awful I I seem to remember EVERYONE on this blog saying, i cant wait for kirk to come back so we can finally bench pargo/green
Ivan Johnson does not buy ground beef, he just takes a whole cow, runs it through his beard, and fully cooked hamburgers come out.
just like players who only play one minute...
how’s that justifyable?
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
hypothetical question
And I’m really talking about game situations. Everyone on this blog has talked about the crazy and stale rotations of the hawks for some years and now it seems people still want that 6 or 7 man rotation.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
I never said that
but I don’t think people understand the rotations either. I don’t think it is realistic to go above a 10 man rotation which is what the Hawks have been using on most nights.
Drew has been essentially playing 10 guys in the first half every night. Sometimes 10 guys play in the second and sometimes it shortens down to around 8 depending the situation.
The ideal situation would have Horford starting and Zaza playing as the backup center which would leave a decision on Vlad or Ivan. Although with Kirk back you could sit Willie Green at times. Without Horford, Zaza is the starter and either Ivan or Collins is the backup or you get extreme and play Smoove there.
That is how I see what is going on.
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I'm not going to be a hypocrite
I may disagree with who he puts in at certain times, but LD can’t be taken to the cleaners on playing 10 players. He’s definitely gotten the hint (and has players to do it with) that you have to play more players. I’m not sure that they have a rhythm for what their roles are and how long they will play, but the rotation part has been pretty consistent.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 26, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
this isn't about kirk
dude hasn’t played a game of basketball in months. he might need a little time to get reacclimated to the game. back off the ledge for a second, folks.
LD should have never gotten this job and i fear ASG is too cheap to do anything about it. iv’e never seen such a lifeless unsupportive coach. is it any wonder this team goes into so many “dont give a f*ck” slumps?
lastly, and this certainly wasnt the sole factor, but that was the most poorly officiated game i’ve seen since the game 6 of the 2002 WCF. straight up clownshoes.
you must not have been to the toronto game
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 26, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
Hinrich quote
“It felt pretty good tonight. I’m happy,” Hinrich said. “The last thing I wanted to happen was to come back and have some sort of setback, or wasn’t able to just do the things I needed to do to contribute.”
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 26, 2012 10:46 AM EST reply actions
Kostas Koufos signs for $9 million
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/218575/Nuggets_Agree_To_$9M_Extension_With_Koufos
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 26, 2012 10:51 AM EST reply actions
Free agent big man off the market
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 26, 2012 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
That we weren't going to give $9 million too anyway
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by Kris Willis on Jan 26, 2012 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
and the last 5 minutes of the 1st half
I touched the garment of Ivan Johnson and I saw the Rapture
by a hooter's baby on Jan 26, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
yup
oh and hte fact hinrich fg% is 100%
Ivan Johnson does not buy ground beef, he just takes a whole cow, runs it through his beard, and fully cooked hamburgers come out.
as he ages its slowing him down laterally .
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 26, 2012 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
So Heinrich and LD are the reason why the Hawks lost
Cuz i could have sworn it was because the Hawks couldnt mark their three point shooters.
Josh Smith lost Matt Bonner THREE possessions in a row
in the third quarter, thats pretty much how the entire game went after that, Atlanta players continuing to lose their man for whatever reason
Bronn said it, I'll repeat it.
How does a player who drifts outside on offense so badly not keep up with that?
Twitter: twitter.com/edgrohl Google+: Ed G
Probably because he assumed Josh had enough sense
to just stick to his man
He did it against the Bucks as well
the Hawks are better off having Josh Smith NOT guard three point shooters, because he gets lost virtually every play. And hes not even getting picked, hes just ball watching the entire time for whatever reason and the shooter drifts towards the three point line. Something he does nearly every possession on offense
Josh
He does this all the time. He cheats off his man and fades into the lane to try to block shots. I think we should have switched and put someone else on Bonner. It’s not a good idea to have Josh guarding 3 pt shooters. He is our only shot blocker anyway.
Josh is the Hawks best rebounder and shot blocker.
He doesn’t need to be guarding 3pt shooters for that reason alone.
That doesnt excuse his play
I dont give a rats ass what he is, he needs to do his damn job, stop excuseing crap play. You wouldnt do it for Marvin, Joe or Teague so why the hell is Josh Smith getting a free pass for letting his man shoot the team out the game
Bonner got going against the bench in the 1st half.
Once a shooter gets going, its very hard to cool him off. When Josh tries to play point guard bringing the ball down the floor, you would say that he needs to give the ball to Teague and run to the rim which is his job. Well guarding 3pt shooters shouldn’t be a part of his job. His job is to protect the lane and grab rebounds.
by jdewayneatl on Jan 27, 2012 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
His job is to play whom he's assigned to play.
Its pretty clear that the one 3 I saw that Bonner actually got on him was a gross miscue on someone/
Dont know If thats on him, Drew or his teammates not telling him. Lets just say it was a clear miscue.
But thats still only 1 play. It wasn’t crap play and Bonner’s 1st three that I saw occured against a Vlad and Ivan miscue.
Last night Josh was 6 for 17, with a +/- of 0 . The only Hawk last night, without a negative +/-,
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Josh Smith * Rasheed Wallace * Al Horford *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 27, 2012 1:02 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah his job is to play whatever postition the coach puts him in to the best of his ability.
Just like every other player on the team. But we wouldn’t expect Teague to play shut down defense versus Chris Bosh. The coach should first put players in position to succeed. When Josh is our only paint protector, why match him up with a player that’s gonna take him outside on every possession?
in man defense yes
but what team plays strict man defense all the time especially when guys get doubled? Team defense is not one person guarding one man.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
But he wasnt helping, he was ball watching
therefore there is no rotation because the person he “Helped” is nonexistent as he didnt need help
I was going off what was stated.
Nothing wrong with that. If someone says that happened I am wont to trust it.
Twitter: twitter.com/edgrohl Google+: Ed G
If you watch Hawks
you know Smoove does defend the basket.
To ask him to defend perimeter, and the basket is a job no one man can do.
Remember, he is going against a Hall of Famer in Duncan.
No one man can play Duncan and defend the perimeter at the same time.
Instead the right question is, why is Smoove being asked to defend the perimeter when he is the Rim protector?
yes and no
If you are assigned a man and he drifts out to the perimeter you should still defend that player no matter what position you play.
What everyone is missing in this discussion is San Antonio runs some good sets to free Bonner. There is a lot of stuff that goes on away from him that sucks the defense down. He simply doesn’t go stand behind the three-point line and is forgotten. The design of Pop’s offense could be the best in the league. It is not something that just happens to the Hawks. Now if you want to argue that the Hawks should have made adjustments then maybe there is something to discuss here.
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Point is about adjustments
If you ask Smoove to do something most of the year, and then ask him to defend a three point shooter when he hasn’t done that the entire year, then it becomes difficult to do. The player most suited for that task was Marvin
So you would have been happy with removing Smoove for Marvin?
You do know that Bonner was playing the power forward position mostly right?
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Removing Smoove does not work
We all know that. With lack of depth in front court, you have to have him and Zaza in almost constantly.
The fact that a player play PF does not mean you have to defend him with a PF. you could play JJ on him and it would stop him on the perimeter, and he is simply not going to drive the ball. The one time he tried that, he missed horribly
ok we put Marvin or JJ on him then that puts Smoove on
Danny Green? or who. Spurs were playing Bonner as the 4 along with Splitter at the 5 for a stretch.
See the point I am making?
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I have seen this story before, remember Orlando
He is no perimeter defender.
I rather take my chance him defending inside whether Splitter or any one else, than defending a 3 point shooter outside.
I understand what you are saying
I am just trying to describe the situation and I am sure that was a match up that Pop wanted to exploit as well.
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What do you mean Smith is "no perimeter defender".
Josh Smith’s Game Winner Block on Jason Richardson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arw7Uj5fJPQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLata6prCro
On top of that he gets to run and catches Jameer Nelson under the basket drawing an instant double team in the post.
On top of that he undressed Turkoglu on both ends.
And that was before the weight loss. Are you kidding me?
Marvin was on Kawhi Leonard. Marvin can’t guard Bonner?
And of Bonner’s 5 threes I’ve only seen once that it was clearly his fault . as far as being clearly lost on matchups . I will try to find the rest but I’ve yet to see how Bonner’s 3s.
Anyone on the team (well at least Larry Drew)will tell you Smith is the best perimeter defender. Thats outrageous.
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 26, 2012 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
Four of Matt Bonner's Five Made 3s (extracted from highlights)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_u5APL3-Bw
The one play Smith does lose his man is a very very dumb play. But at most there were 2-3s made on Smith where he should be blamed for not making the proper rotation.
Vlad’s is very ugly and again shows why he should play with the starters. Not only offense but defensively it helps.
Maybe Marvin on the bench could post up more or create and score more. Its high-time to try something different.
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 26, 2012 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
Josh is no perimeter defender
those were only two plays and he hardly ever closes on a shooter
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
What do you mean 2 plays. Did you miss the entire series? Guy was 235 and keeping up with Turkoglu
"I always have come in training camp in shape, but I always was playing one position, the four," he said. "You have to play with a certain kind of weight to match with the physicality of the fours around the league."
Last year during the postseason, Drew began also using him at the three, and Smith found himself trying to keep up with some awfully fleet small forwards.
"There were definitely some obstacles," he said about guarding threes.
Fighting off pick-and-rolls and staying with his man was among the challenges he faced.
Smith realized if he were to defend smaller, quicker players, he had to get a little more spring in his step. And the best way was to enter the season a little trimmer.
Smith is easily a 2 way matchup nightmare at the 3. But of course we need a shooting big.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuklWpNBhE0
While his statistics are also healthy, he brings some awfully important intangibles. Smith is an effective defender, against both small and power forwards these days.
"He has really done a phenomenal job in guarding bigs and guarding smalls," Drew said. "We put him in situations where we put him on smaller guys and he is locked in and has gotten the job done."
To say Smith is a bad perimeter defender at this point of his career? Coaches put him on Derrick Rose on that last play in the Chicago loss.
Only reason he’s “bad” is team context. He’s the only competent shotblocker to erase mistakes.
But I really think you’re confusing man to man defense with making help rotations. Either way its strange
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Josh Smith * Rasheed Wallace * Al Horford *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 27, 2012 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
Hawks head coach Larry Drew on Josh Smith
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Josh Smith * Rasheed Wallace * Al Horford *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 27, 2012 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
uh
What do you mean 2 plays. Did you miss the entire series? Guy was 235 and keeping up with Turkoglu
And that’s an accomplishment because?
To say Smith is a bad perimeter defender at this point of his career? Coaches put him on Derrick Rose on that last play in the Chicago loss
You mean this game? Even though we won, kinda looked like Josh was getting did in.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
1st quote- I meant 245-250, which was his playing weight last year.
2nd quote – Reread. I said in a Chicago Loss he was on Derrick Rose. That was this season. He knows he got did in, thats why he said he lost weight.
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Josh Smith * Rasheed Wallace * Al Horford *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 27, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
Didn't mean to come off rude in my last post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR13sqiatbU
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Josh Smith * Rasheed Wallace * Al Horford *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 27, 2012 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
I would
he wasn’t doing anything on offense. pop was ok with sitting his whole starting 5 damn near – we could have tried it without Josh…
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 26, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
Where the Hawks really screwed up is not attacking Bonner on the offensive end of the floor
They did a good job of this against Kyle Korver in the playoffs. You have to make teams pay for putting those three-point specialists on the floor.
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+1
If you want to complain then do it about having a back up center that is 6-foot-8. Of course had LD played Collins then this place would have been lit up about how Johnson should have played.
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by Kris Willis on Jan 26, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly
i didnt even know Tiaggo Splitter had any offensive skills, going off the Spurs broadcast he was playing pretty good the last 5 games or so. Their bench simply dominated the game once the starters went out, Spurs have a deep basketball team filled with players who do more than one thing well.
There's a reason why they can turn garbage into gold player wise.
The concentrate on fundamentals and sticking to the game plan. Something I feel the Hawks severely lack.
Twitter: twitter.com/edgrohl Google+: Ed G
cant call them garbage
that second unit was filled with actual talent they scouted that other teams simply missed, except for Matt Bonner, Who is awful, that Josh Smith made look like an All pro last night.
I'm trying to find how many 3s were actually Josh Smith's fault. Tiago Splitter's "fundamentals" consisted of making many layups after guards broke down the perimeter and passed to him. Where our paint was undersized.
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 26, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn't call Tiago Splitter garbage.
The Spurs know exactly what they’re looking for in International prospects and gets the most out of them. In terms of international players he was one of the best prospects to come out of Brazil and from the same ilk as Ricky Rubio, starting professional basketball at 14. I think the main difference is the type of International Player Development coaches the Spurs have is unlike any organization. They know how to coach these international players to their fullest extent. Most of them enjoy their best seasons with the Spurs and fail to achieve the same success once they leave.
Tony Parker
Fabricio Oberto
Luis Scola
Manu Ginobli
Beno Udrih
Hedo Turkoglu
Rasho Nesterovic
Ron Artest = Ron (sm)Artest - He Is The Most Interesting Man In The World
by JoshChildressAfroIsCure4Cancer on Jan 26, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
I honestly didn't see the game
but why is it either one or the other? Can’t the coach adjust to game situations?
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
Is this a reply to me?
If it is, would you really want Collins on the floor given the way he has played lately? My guess is LD didn’t and went with Ivan because he has no one else that can play the center position on this roster.
There is two scenarios, play Collins at center or play Ivan at center. If that is the case then most night’s I am going to go with Ivan but you can see that he is going to be overmatched against bigger players.
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Playing Collins last night wouldn't have mattered would it?
My thing is if Collins is active, and you’ve been starting him, why not play him spot minutes. Haven’t we all seen how effective he is in certain situations that Zaza has proven that he is?
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
I can't believe this
and I am not picking on you because you could have been in favor of playing Collins but I look at these comments everyday and the complaints flip flop depending on who plays.
If Collins plays then the conversation is he never should play and if he sits then someone says well we should have played Collins.
Honestly I could have circled last night’s game as a game that the Hawks would probably lose a week ago. I doubt anyone here felt different. Its only a problem if they go out and lost Friday night.
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I know the comments here can kinda echo the same sentiments
but I’ve never said Collins is garbage and he shouldn’t play….ever. As a coach you have to know game situations and the active players and try to get an advantage or even out an advantage the other team has over you. That’s all I’m saying
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
In that context I agree with you
I was shocked he didn’t play against Bogut and Milwaukee but it worked there. Perhaps Drew wasn’t happy with his play the last couple of times out. Maybe its just a case of trying to find minutes for both Vlad and Ivan. I’m not sure but the Hawks could have used more size last night but I am not sold that playing 4 on 5 offensively would have worked against the Spurs.
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Put me in the Collins sucks and hsouldn't play bucket
Playing Collins wasn’t changing squat last night. I’m not gonna be mad at Drew for not playing Collins ever even if it’s a DNP vs. D. Howard…
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 26, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
I know at least one came from Smith missing Bonner (at the top of the key), One from Ivan Johnson and Vlad miscommunicating in the 2nd quarter.
And one I remember from last night was not Smith’s fault because he made the proper rotation to a wide open shooter.
The next man on the team did not have Smith’s back and left Bonner open on the rotation. Cant find that play but thats 3 play out of 5 of Bonners 3 pointers.
So if Bonner made the last 2 plays on Smith that’s 9 total points off 3s. And I don’t think thats the root of the problem.
Not enough size or skill. This is a Western team that you have to go big to defend and get easy points. Or else they’re going to bully you and keep you outside their painted area.
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
* Kirk Hinrich * Tracy McGrady * Marvin Williams * Ivan/Vlad * Zaza Pachulia *
----
* Hawks traded {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut} {& Bench Marvin Williams }
When Joe and Josh play that bad they will have a tough time winning.
Especially against a good team on the road without Horford. Wish people would stop talking about centers, the NBA only has 3 maybe 5 decent centers and none of them want to play in Atlanta. Anyone else we get would not be much of an upgrade on Zaza.
Did anyone else hear the Heat announcers on NBATV Tuesday? They said the triple over time win against the Hawks was one of the Great regular season victories in Heat Franchise history.
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