Honesty Corner's 5 Truths: Vol. 13
Looks like the Atlanta Hawks have hit adversity in the name of a Hawks injury, but So, it's time to read the disclaimer and then - let's go...
Disclaimer: As always, all criticisms come after blaming the Atlanta Spirit Group first, management second, and then coaches and players last. Those criticisms come through the prism of winning championships (or the things that result in championship team building).
Truth 1. Al Horford's injury has ZERO impact on the Hawks playoff outcome.
And by no impact I mean - as long as everyone else stays relatively healthy (T-Mc & Marvin) - that the Hawks are still one of the top 8 teams in the conference. For those who panicked when Al went down, let me help everyone out. The Hawks are not a lottery level basketball team. The Hawks are not a contender for the NBA title. So, what happened when Al Horford was injured? Ummmmmm, nothing. Sure, we may not have a weapon that we are accustomed to having, but last year - we were one of the remaining 8 teams without point guard consistency, no All Star level production from the center or shooting guard, and Marvin Williams playing behind ...uh, some Wilkins fellow. So, what is it that I'm saying? That have a lot of talent. What we don't have is an efficient, cohesive use of all of those talents (not to mention experience, leadership and an identity for those talents). So, before this is confused as Al Horford hate, it's not. I'll definitely stump for Al's defense and his ability to use his few touches to score points, but despite popular belief - he's no more a leader than Joe Johnson is. So, we're not going to miss anything other than production and depth and at the level that he's performed this season - we can approximate it elsewhere. I'll reserve my Al Horford is a souped up Chuck Hayes theory for another day. So, I simply say that there are only 4 teams with 2 All Star level talents to go along with some NBA level talent on the bench (though the jury is still out on Jannero Pargo). Maybe it would help if I remind everyone of who is left in the Eastern Conference. Here's who needs us to lose 2 more starters to have a chance at our spot - the Pistons, Wizards, Bobcats, Cavaliers, Raptors, and Nets. So, that leaves 9 teams. Which means only Milwaukee, Boston, and New York have a chance at beating out the Hawks for that 8th spot. Does anyone think that's going to happen? If you do, I have some land to sell. So, I repeat - Al Horford is definitely a piece we want back for the playoffs, rusty or not. But any thought that we need to lower playoff expectations (and shame on Larry "No Excuses" Drew for saying anything other than next man up) is ludicrous.
Truth 2. Ivan Johnson could save Larry Drew (and Rick Sund).
Listen, I have made it VERY clear that I have no confidence in Larry Drew or Rick Sund. I'm not sure if that'll change any time soon (particularly after sitting behind the bench vs. the Raptors last week - he definitely handles Zaza and Teague MUCH differently than anyone else on the team), but the decision to add Ivan Johnson to the rotation could be a season saver. The only way you can make up for bad drafting decisions is to pick up diamonds in the rough. Signing a player like Wes Matthews can do wonders for your team. In this case, you can easily forgive the mistake of Pape Sy and Keith Benson if you keep an Ivan Johnson and he actually helps you win a game or two. The Hawks have needed another enforcer and it looks like they found one in Ivan. He'll never cost you more than the minimum and he's still going to contribute. This would normally be a squandered signing, but Drew is actually playing him through his inexperience and mistakes. I will keep my eye on this upon Al's possible return and other players' return to health.
Truth 3. Jason Collins should never start (not even vs. Dwight Howard).
I hate that I have to say this, but since Drew seemingly likes Jason Collins - I must. Jason Collins is done. He's not worth a roster spot unless you think you have to go through Dwight Howard to win a title. But since you don't - you would rather just have a player that can do something more than play one on one defense vs. Dwight Howard. If you are afforded the luxury to have him, fine - but I don't care what your thoughts are about Zaza Pachulia (and I happen to think he's a fairly good backup center, emphasis on backup) - he's light years better than Jason Collins. Shoots better, rebounds better, passes better and is tougher and more intimidating. Jason Collins is none of those things and if he comes into the game as anything other a backup - it sends a signal that he just has a problem with Zaza. And if you heard the names he called Drew vs. the Raptors - there is a problem brewing and if I'm him - I don't blame him. Drew has never shown Zaza the respect he deserves. Let's hope that the Horford injury will force Drew to give Zaza the grudging respect he's having to give Jeff Teague. And if he needs a big body on the 2nd string - his name is undersized Ivan Johnson.
Truth 4. Larry Drew needs a technical.
I've been to probably 25-30 games a year since Philips Arena opened. The Toronto game was probably the worst officiated game that I've ever witnessed up close. There were a number of fouls that were not called on Jeff Teague, Josh Smith, and Marvin Williams. The Raptors were given every ticky-tack call and even ones that weren't even fouls. At one point, Jeff Teague was given a technical foul for defending himself against a player who pushed him and was yakking with him. In the huddle, guess who's getting cussed out - Jeff Teague. Not only that - Josh Smith, who certainly has gotten technicals and never misses a chance to give an official an earful - was not talked to on ANY timeouts for any reason. Why is this being outlined? Because Larry Drew needs to learn how to stick up for his guys. On several occasions, I watched Drew passively suggest that maybe we could possibly get a call (if the officials felt so inclined). Dammit, to get respect, sometimes - you gotta demand it. Sometimes, you just have to send officials a signal that your team will not be disrespected, esp. not at home on MLK Day. You have to say - we want equal rights because Bro. Martin said it should be so. And guess what - your team would respect you because of it. Not only that, it would benefit the team for that to happen. I certainly can't imagine that the Hawks are getting the benefit of any doubt from officials and that must change today.
Truth 5. 2012 Off-season Planning can't wait for 2012 Playoff Results.
The Hawks need more talent to win a title (and a coach, GM, and owners) and to get more talent - they need to determine who to trade between Horford and Josh Smith, whether it's possible to get $20M/yr production from Joe Johnson (they can't), whether Marvin can be showcased enough to make him trade-able, and how to get cap room and/or draft picks. Here's what we know - that this is the deepest draft in the last 5-10 years, there are some great players who will be available in the off-season, and the Hawks are stuck in cap/draft limbo. Too capped to get a great player and too good to get a real difference maker. I know everyone wants to wait to see how far this team can go. Turn away if you aren't ready (SPOILER ALERT) - we won't (Al or not) win a title this year. So, we need to prepare for the off-season now. What does that mean - Kirk Hinrich is expendable and come trade deadline...everyone needs to be on the table. Don't get fooled into thinking anything else, my fellow Hawks fans or else we'll be at 2012-2013 with the same ceiling we've had for the past 3 years and with no way to change it.
Next week, we'll discuss - what's wrong with the fans? why Al Horford fans confuse important with best? why Josh overtake Joe and Al as our leader in 2012? Until then, that's this week's 5 Truths....agree or disagree if you must, but if it's the Honesty Corner, then it can't be lies. See you in the comments...
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I agree on every point but 1
That being we’re not a title contender. I only say this because of how the Association is shifting from superstar oriented teams (E.G. the Heat) to balanced, all around teams like the Sixers. (P.S., to anyone saying the Sixers aren’t for real: give me a break. Have you SEEN them?) The Hawks fall into the latter category, and maybe that reason alone gives me hope we’ll at least sniff the Eastern C. Championship game.
Also, as much as I hate to say this, between trading Horford and trading Josh, I’d trade Horford, because he’s not vastly underrated.
Question: Woody, what happened to the ball movement? Answer: I think our defense was pretty solid tonight. We held them to under 200 points so we did our job on that end.
by JohnWebb on Jan 17, 2012 7:45 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Really?
Well, I like the optimism, but I’m not sure you really think that we’re beating the Bulls or Heat in a 7 game series. What about the last 3 playoff runs have you seen that said – we can win tough games vs. less than flawed talent.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 18, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
Derrick Rose is overrated. Sorry he is.
In a condensed season how dumb would we look if Rose is injured and Wade is injured and we lose to the 76ers because we didnt have a center.
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 19, 2012 3:03 AM EST up reply actions
Well,
let’s just say I can only tell you that there’s no way we can have a debate where your points start with Rose is overrated, Wade is injured and all of a sudden we’re worried about the 76ers. I don’t have time to discuss something as crazy as that.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 19, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
Rose is overrated.
Should he have been the MVP at age 22? When he’s still learning the difference between PG and SG. Look who took him out of the playoffs,
He gets injured too frequently and his playing style is the source. Tendinitis and now Turf toe which has ended careers.
The point about the 76ers is agreeing with teams that are moving towards complementing 1 or 2 star players and depth as opposed to massive contracts for “superstars” who crush cap space. Limit improvement and flexibility.
76ers are better than the Knicks are they not? Who would you worry about more in a 7 game series? The Knicks or the 76ers?
Let’s be honest Horford wasn’t the center we wanted before the injury and he sure won’t be the one we want when we make it to playoffs.
He couldn’t own the paint before and with the shoulder injury play we see why he was so perimeter inclined and adamant he was not a center. But to Horford’s point about Smith to the 3 and him to the 4… Woodson tried it. They failed. Drew tries it and it fails. Only way Smith can ever play the small Forward is if the Big Forward can shoot and keep Smith inside.
If we had a true center can you say that Smith would not become a worse version of Gerald Wallace? With teams double teaming only to have him in the corner bricking 3s with time winding down?
It’s too easy to counter. They don’t have the skillsets to play the forwards together.
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 20, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Anyone have a hi-lighter?
I'm on the Twitter: twitter.com/edgrohl
by Duff_Man on Jan 17, 2012 8:27 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Much better timing with posts this year - giving them on off-days
Not much one can argue with truths 4 and 5.
You are SO wrong with truth 1. You should check MC’s latest blog, so illuminating. In a nutshell, he believes Hawks would have contended for EC finals. Pre-season i thought we had no chance. After seeing the 3 games (two vs. Chicago and one vs. Heat in Miami) pre Lion injury, I agree with MC(i am not counting the game vs. Heat in ATL, because Hawks just didn’t care). With Lion, this team was more than I thought. Sund wisely added pieces that improved Hawks. Hawks beat Chicago twice (i know you remember first game in Chicago). That was no accident. Twice, we crushed them. That Hawks team with Lion was going places. like I said you can not be more wrong. (I know what the scoreboard vs, Chicago first game says, but we killed them).
Truth 2, Ivan can not save Sund’s job. Not if Sund can not add a big man to this team. It will be disappointing if we go down because of lack of a center.
Truth 3, Collins is limited. But he has his uses. LD is doing the right thing choosing his matchups based on opponent. Remember Orlando playoffs?
Nope
The funny thing is – we’ve seen these Hawks before. The ones that are beating bad teams and winning occasionally vs. good ones. I can only point to the Heat game as exactly why the psyche of this team is not championship worthy. You can say that all teams have this happen, but simply put – our team has pretty much quit in each of the last three playoffs when faced with stout competition. The same pieces are in place, the same leadership (not buying Stackhouse as the leader), same coaching, etc. Everything that matters is the same – Ivan is the only player that looks ‘different’ to me. And that’s with me liking V-Rad and T-Mc. Yes, we have a few new pieces, but come playoff time – I’m not sure that they were gonna matter. That said, you still haven’t addressed my point. We are going to make the playofffs with or without Al Horford. We actually can win a first round series if we’re playing about 3-4 particular teams (Magic, Pacers, Knicks, maybe Boston), but right now I’m not sure we can take the Sixers, Bulls, or Heat – no matter what. If you read MC’s piece, MC said we can contend for the ECF. You know what that means – we can do what we did the past 2 years. Contending for the ECF is uh, making it to the 2nd round. Been there, done that. I’m saying we can do that. Even if I don’t think we will. What I don’t believe is we WILL be in the ECF, so it has no impact. We can achieve the same end result with Al or without him. That’s my point.
Truth 2 – Have you seen our ownership? Do you realize that they can spin anything into keeping cheap quiet people in positions? So, if you think that adding a big man is going to sink Sund – you haven’t been watching this ownership group. Sund should have been fired 2 years ago.
Truth 3 – I do remember the Orlando playoffs and my point stands. I am of the mindset that we would have defeated the Magic no matter what as long as we simply put someone on Howard – Collins didn’t stop Howard for that entire series. So, I’d rather have a player who actually has more use than during 4 regular season games and 7 playoff games potentially. It’ll be doubly silly if they trade Howard, then I’ll definitely want Collins to actually be cut, so we can bring on a player we can use as a part of the rotation. Collins is not a rotation worthy player for a playoff team. He’s an emergency break glass – Horford just went down and I need to play someone right quick to deliver some fouls kinda player.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 18, 2012 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
Contending for ECF means we have real chance for winning it
The last few years, Hawks did not have a real chance.
Lose to Cleveland, and Orlando, 4-0 in second round meant we had no chance.
Last year, Hawks perhaps could have won one more game vs. Chicago, but that team was too deep and once they defended Jamal we really could not beat them by getting scoring from other sources.
Fast forward to this year pre Lion injury, Hawks had a real chance after I saw them. I am repeating what I said above, because you clearly ignore the pre Lion injury games. That meant contending and having a chance at winning Eastern Conference. That is the definition of contending, having a chance. In post Al Horford injury, if another center is not added, this team does not have a chance to win the Eastern Conference.
Now as related to whether Hawks make it or not to playoffs, I have been on record saying before the season started, that Hawks come in at number 7 and lose in first round.
If I get to say whether Hawks make it post Lion injury I would have to say borderline make it. I was probably thinking we won’t make it, but games vs. Portland and Wolves may have changed my mind. Still, I continue to say it is early to predict how Hawks will play post Lion till we see more. But I probably say we make it as again either a 7 or 8.
I am not convinced Celtics are as bad as their record (I hope they are). I am pretty convinced NY have chemistry issues but they will get Baron Davis back so who knows. I am convinved without Lion, we have no chance vs. Miami, Chicago, Pacers, Sixers. I predict those are the top four teams in East. I predict we lose to any of those four without adding a center.
Now if we add a center, then I think we have a chance to win the East.
I hear ya
just don’t agree with you. I’ll leave it at that. There’s nothing that made me think before or after that we’re a borderline playoff team, but that said – I never thought we’d contend and still don’t. So, that’s it. We’ll agree to disagree on that assessment. With a full season of healthy Al, we aren’t winning the ECF or for that matter without some catastrophe for another team even making it.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 19, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
nothing will change until the spirit sell to an owner who has the balls to
this team to another level.
Im rec'ing this article just cus you got Nicki on the front
dont judge me people
Ivan Johnson does not buy ground beef, he just takes a whole cow, runs it through his beard, and fully cooked hamburgers come out.
Haha
I was about to write something about that
Any and all new Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer factoids must be approved by Ivan Johnson
by a hooter's baby on Jan 18, 2012 12:12 AM EST up reply actions
you know she's half the reason I go to the games
part Japanese and Jamaican? that right there is a rare find my friend.
Ivan Johnson does not buy ground beef, he just takes a whole cow, runs it through his beard, and fully cooked hamburgers come out.
Denisse is actually the dime piece of them all
but Nicki isn’t a bad consolation at all.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 18, 2012 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
Hawks str8talk my respect went up for you
simply because you know the dancers names and dont find it weird. Oh and again becuase you put Nicki on the front. I look for her everytime I go to a game. dont judge
Ivan Johnson does not buy ground beef, he just takes a whole cow, runs it through his beard, and fully cooked hamburgers come out.
NO need to judge
we all should know the dancer’s names. You would have respected me more when I knew them all a few years back, but trust me – it’s only a function of the fact that one of my closest friends was a Hawks dancer and used to live with me (as in roommate, not romantic). I also was a dance team judge for 2 years, so yeah – I know a few of the young ladies. :)
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 19, 2012 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
*bows down*
you must teach me your ways
Ivan Johnson does not buy ground beef, he just takes a whole cow, runs it through his beard, and fully cooked hamburgers come out.
start with
would you ladies like a drink – they only making $50 a game, so it’s worth a shot.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 19, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
ha it's worth a shot
Ivan Johnson does not buy ground beef, he just takes a whole cow, runs it through his beard, and fully cooked hamburgers come out.
by Throw on Jan 19, 2012 4:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I wouldnt say that al horford makes 0 impact
though I agree saying that we are a good team. Missing him will hurt us in the middle simply because we are forced to give twin some minutes
Ivan Johnson does not buy ground beef, he just takes a whole cow, runs it through his beard, and fully cooked hamburgers come out.
Don't misunderstand
Al matters – he just doesn’t change the trajectory of the team in my eyes. Meaning I can see us winning a 1st round series without Al and I didn’t see us winning a second round WITH Al. That’s all…
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 18, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
So rumor is kurt thomas may start tomorrow
if thats the case just let collins start again so I we can see who can get away with the more obvious foul. And dammit I forgot hawk hater gerald wallace plays for them
Ivan Johnson does not buy ground beef, he just takes a whole cow, runs it through his beard, and fully cooked hamburgers come out.
you're kidding me with number 5
Let’s just call number 5 a prediction because nobody knows the future. The reason we’re all hawks fans (or at least me) is because each year, regardless of how our team is constructed, we want our teams to win as many games as possible. That includes trying to get an NBA championship…..it comes with the territory of being a fan…..not because their winning
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
The hawks will win a championship.............. someday
Ivan Johnson does not buy ground beef, he just takes a whole cow, runs it through his beard, and fully cooked hamburgers come out.
Ok, my prediction is
the Hawks aren’t winning a title in 2012. I love the Hawks and I want them to do well, but if doing well in 2012 and not building a foundation to actually win a title in 13, 14, or 15 is the answer – I’m throwing out the question. So, I’d prefer to build to a title in another year and use this year as a part of that process. As we all know, there are many fans who disagree with that approach. I’ll just say that you probably are in that batch. No problem – just know that that’s where I am with it. My approach would have yielded us a benefit from having Jamal Crawford vs. just some wins and losses and $20M paid out…
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Jan 18, 2012 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
What approach is that? Its not built on Horford at center is it?
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 19, 2012 3:05 AM EST up reply actions
And Joe Johnson is more of a leader.
All I know is Josh Smith and Joe Johnson are good complements. And Al complements who on the court?
We know everyone’s flaws. Yeah he ranks high as a center but what does Horford provide to complement the core?
Kidd – floor general – Teague*
Terry – shooter – Joe Johnson*
Marion – defensive tweener – Josh Smith*
Dirk* – shooter – Vlad Radmanovic
Chandler – defensive center – ?Ivan Johnson,Jason Collins?
There are stars and then there are pressure releases.
We have the core of Teague, Johnson, Josh, we need a pressure release shooter and a center to scrap for inside boards that also relieves pressure.
We have the blueprint. I’m tired of showcasing Horford’s talents getting in the way of showcasing the TEAMs talent.
We have a TEAM and Horford’s size helps but it does not maximize our other VERY talented players. If he can’t man the center position then what good is he.
He certainly is not in the Dirk/Vlad mold of perimeter pressure release. And neither is Marvin Williams.
We have gotten this far in spite of bad fit. Horford’s “leadership” helped us learn how to win (get stops and methodical offense) but it has run its course.
No need to spin it any other way. You can try to rebuild around Horford and a Harrison Barnes but Josh Smith as a 2nd or 3rd option (as the team is constructed) has a better chance against Lebron James than Iso-Harrison Barnes will ever have of getting past the Miami Cheat.
I’m sorry but if you think youre gonna draft some small forward to iso score and carry Horford to 20 and 10, trade Joe Johnson to a contender for a rebuild year, and then be on the way to a championship. You’re loony.
A rebuild is the absolute worst thing to try. Trading Horford might be cold but we made a mistake in thinking Marvin’s shooting and Horford at center could help cover Joe and Josh’s flaws.
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 18, 2012 12:44 AM EST reply actions
My computer cut off my last heading...Joe Johnson's scoring and size is more integral to winning matchups and irreplaceable than an undersized Center.
Yeah we need a center but its not necessarily Al.
And Marvin should never start again. Radmanovic complements us more. Any draftees that look like a competent get steals on defense and then stand in corner dead eye shooter type?
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 18, 2012 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
Formatting, Larry, formatting :-)
Warn me before you post these - SBNation thought we there was a national emergency — Code Yellow — on the site!
Great post, too—Almost posted that picture on the Basketball Reference post earlier.

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