Bobcats vs. Hawks Final Score: Atlanta Hawks 111, Charlotte Bobcats 81
by Jason Walker on Jan 13, 2012 1:25 AM EST
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Quick Thought: Hawks are 1-0 on night where Al Horford is declared out for the next 3-4 months.
Deep(er) Thoughts:
Without Al Horford the rest of the Hawks needed to step up and fill in the considerable gaps that Horford provides every night if they were going to beat the visiting Charlotte Bobcats.
And they did.
Josh Smith stepped up and took more shots -- and made them -- going 14-22 for a season high 30 points and then grabbed 13 rebounds as well.
Joe Johnson was off the mark with his long range shots, but was able to get to the free throw line and then rebound and assist enough to fill the stat sheet, quietly as always, ending with a 23 point, seven rebound, eight assist effort.
The #1 guy who has to jump start his already impressive growth is Jeff Teague, who responded by attempting 16 shots and making seven. He also provided a good night in the box score, supplying six boards and seven assists.
Zaza Pachulia, Willie Green, and Ivan Johnson also contributed --- all scoring over 10 points for the game and Pachulia getting 10 rebounds as well to complete his double-double in relief of Horford.
It's the kind of effort that we saw from Miami as they rallied around their starts sitting against the Hawks over a week ago. While Horford isn't on LeBron James or Dwyane Wade's level, his loss was important enough to saturate Twitter earlier in the day and was generally considered the one guy the Hawks couldn't lose, and the Hawks responded with a solid hustle/energy effort throughout the game.
20 offensive rebounds, one three point basket yielded, and only four offensive rebounds allowed. That's dominance.
Here is an excerpt from Charlotte's blog, Rufus on Fire:
Other than that, I really don't have much to say about this game. It was ugly. It had bad lineups. It had poorly-executed offense. It had abominable rebounding (OREBs Hawks - 20, Bobcats - 4) -- without Al Horford. The Hawks outperformed the Bobcats in every category, except for blocks. Atlanta had 12 more field goal attempts than the Bobcats, and hit a higher percentage. The only Bobcats' three-pointer came from Kemba Walker with 9 minutes left.
"We've given up. I don't know what to say," Paul Silas would say after the game.
For more on the Atlanta Hawks check out SB Nation Atlanta, follow Jason Walker and Kris Willis, along with Peachtree Hoops on Twitterand check out the Peachtree Hoops Facebook Fan Page.
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Josh Smith had beast mode enabled
JJ was shooting the ball well and, all in all, the Hawks dominated the boards. Without Horford, everyone needed to step up to the rebounding burden, and they all did, excellently.
I want to see more of THIS Josh.
Braves will be fine. I'm not worried.
by Bronn on Sep 18, 2011 4:26 PM EDT
Agree with you about Josh...
But Al’s burden of the rebounding load was 7, so the burden wasn’t so heavy to begin with.
by jdewayneatl on Jan 12, 2012 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
The previous two years
Horford was the leader rebounder on the team, in terms of percentage. His percentage was down this year, yes, so he was only really the fourth leading rebounder by percentage. Some part of that is because other guys were stepping up, some part of it was small sample size, some part of it was actually worrying me about Horford.
If you want to have a serious discussion about how Horford was struggling this year, I’d entertain it. If you can’t get beyond points per game and rebounds per game, you’re just going to annoy the hell out of me, and I’ll be forced to ignore you for my own sanity.
Regardless, Horford always gave consistent effort on the boards, even this year when his numbers were depressed, so that aspect is going to need to be spread around. Josh has ALWAYS been inconsistent on the boards, and Zaza is just inconsistent in general. We’re going to need Josh to work harder on rebounding, consistency out of Zaza, and for guys like Vlad and Marvin to chip in as well in order to make sure it doesn’t become a problem in the future. Tonight was great, and I’d love to see a lot more.
Braves will be fine. I'm not worried.
by Bronn on Sep 18, 2011 4:26 PM EDT
So this...
Do you think that Al shoulders as much burden of winning and losing for the Hawks? Is he held with just as much accountability for when he plays lousy and the Hawks are not playing well? Is Al ever the reason for the Hawks not winning?
My opinion is that he doesn’t. My opinion is that when he is not having a good game, the Hawks can win games. It is much less likely that the Hawks win many games if Josh is not playing well and/or Joe is not playing well.
Josh and Joe are expected to be great every night. Josh teases us with what he can do with his skill and athleticism. Joe has a max contract. But in my opinion again, Al is expected to be consistently good for 15 and 9.5. Really, when you have a talent like Josh and a perimeter talent like Joe, if Al could DOMINATE on the boards (not just be fairly good by giving a good 9 boards a game) or be a consistent 20/10 threat every night, this team could get to the next level. Dominating on the boards is 12+ boards a night.
My thing is Al is good, but his intangibles don’t make him great and really overrated when you consider that Joe and Josh still carry more of the weight of how well the team plays and whether it wins or loses.
There's a double standard when it comes to Josh Smith
Just let them think Horford is the leader and catalyst of this team.
Why does it always have to degrade to Josh Vs. Al
@Kris_Willis
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Its about Joe, Josh, and Al.
They are the core. So we should have the same expectations of all three. And Al has not been getting it done. I mean where has Al made drastic improvement since his rookie season.
My thing is they have come up short and its not because of one specific thing always. But if Al is the Hawks best player, he needs to play like it. He needs to dominate. I really envisioned him to have a Karl Malone type career (25/10).
There is more to the game than points, rebounds and other numbers
I glad you envisioned him as Karl Malone because I am not sure anyone else did. He doesn’t get the touches to average those kinds of numbers.
@Kris_Willis
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But what is a glue guy?
I mean what is it exactly that the Hawks will miss besides numbers. Its obvious that Al isn’t the greatest leader in the world if the Hawks are still looking for veteran leadership. I mean Joe is quiet and leads by example, but that’s not enough. Josh is too erratic and emotional, so he doesn’t fit the mold of a leader in that sense. But Al has been given this title and yet has not produced. After a while anyone that leads has to produce. Ask Lebron about that. Lebron will never be the leader that Kobe or Jordan or even Wade if he doesn’t produce (in his case, in the 4th quarter when it matters and hanging a championship banner).
Despite all the hoopla anointing Al as a leader of all leaders, he has not produced when the Hawks needed him most. And at the end of the day the Hawks success or failure is on the shoulders of Joe and Josh. Really, everyone has to admit that.
What makes Al so great if he doesn’t dominate Cs… or PFs? He is not a dominant player that would take this team from contending with the elite to not being a playoff team at all. And that’s how a lot of people are making it seem. He is not Dwight, he is a glue guy. He is Kurt Thomas with a little extra skill. That’s what I am beginning to come to believe if he can’t be any more productive on the court.
With that said, I like Al, but I also believe that just like Joe and Josh, the Hawks need a whole lot more from Al. More than just being a glue guy. Leadership only goes as far as to what you accomplish and the Hawks have not gotten out of the second round three years running.
You misunderstand the concept of Glue and Leader
It ia not about scoring. It is also not about the “per”. It is not about what can easily be counted on a stat sheet.
Allow me to explain
Case Study 1,
Let’s take the case of world champions Dallas Mavs to start.
Now, we can agree Dallas has been a deep team. A team with great ownership. A team with a true superstar in Dirk. A great possible HOF point guard in Kidd. Sixth man of the year candidate year in and year out in our own Jason T. And other nuggets of complementary players that have been shinning stars on other teams before ending with Mavs.
So what was the difference last year?
Lets spell the name in big bold letters and repeat:
T Y S O N – - – C H A N D L E R
Based on your flawed logic, a player with scoring average of 10.1, and rebounding average of 9.4, should not have the effect of Chandler on Dallas. But if you ask any one on that org, they will say loud and clear, he is our leader. He is the reason we win. His passion. enthusiasm, and positive energy. That in fact took them to the promised land.
You see sometimes the effect of a leader, is much more than simple numbers.
Case study 2,
All Star game. You must wonder why Al Lion Harford was selected to All Star game, not once, but twice. Why do coaches select him? Surely not because he has amazing 20 and 10 numbers. Because they see the heart of a leader. Am I full of it? Let me quote my favorite NBA coach, my second most favorite Hawk of all time, Doc Rivers:
“Before the Celtics’ last regular season game against the Hawks, coach Doc Rivers said, "They’re an inverted transition team. You don’t see it very often where the bigs outrun the guards. Their bigs fly. Horford, I don’t know what motor he runs on, but it’s amazing. I love him, I love watching him. I was just telling someone, of all the All-Stars, coaching the All-Star team, he was hands down—it wasn’t even close—my favorite guy. Just the way he carries himself. He made a comment to me, ‘Coach, don’t worry about playing me, I just want to play one stint. This is about the stars.’ And I said, ‘You know, you’re one of those guys.’ Man he’s so unassuming—and you knew it was for real."
You can believe what you want. But above should be enough for you to see how the outside world values leaders.
Now I walk away depressed again realizing I won’t see the young man again till next year….
Points made and well taken...
In the sense of losing a Tyson Chandler if that’s who you feel Al can fairly be compared to, I definitely can agree with you as far as what he means to the team in that comparison. In the same fold, would you agree that Al is our Ben Wallace (2004 Ben of course), Lamar Odom, or Udonis Haslem maybe?
If so, I can agree with what that means to lose a guy like that. But I don’t think that it is make or break to lose Al as it is right now, with so much other talent on this team. Just like those other guys with the exception of Chandler (who changed the culture of what it meant to play defense in Dallas), losing Al is just a hurdle that the Hawks can manage.
In comparison with what Chandler brought for the Mavs, Al is not the backbone of the Hawks defense. Josh by far is that guy. Josh is without a doubt the heart and soul of this team. Honestly Joe and Josh would be much,much harder to replace than Al.
My whole thing is that losing Al has to be seen in the perspective that of course its a huge blow to lose your starting center of 5 years, but all the talent around him made him better and vice versa.
This team is good enough and talented enough to pick up the pieces. Teague is coming along, Smoove is in beast mode right now, Joe is transitioning his game and picking his spots, Marvin is showing signs of a rebirth, Hinrich is in the stall ready to burst onto the scene. Zaza will bring a high level of energy every night (whether its productive every night we only hope), TMac is emerging as the perfect compliment to the core of this team, VladRad’s shooting ability is on full display, Ivan is rugged, and Willie Green and Pargo are the ultimate professionals.
Sure Al’s presence will be missed but no way does losing him automatically make the Hawks a lottery team. It will come to past that playing without Al won’t be as earth-shattering as you all predict.
Actually
I think the backbone of the Hawks’ defense are both Horford AND Smooth. Having a pair of frontline guys who are quick, long, and great at help defense has been a cornerstone of the team over the past 4 years.
Braves will be fine. I'm not worried.
by Bronn on Sep 18, 2011 4:26 PM EDT
I think you are way more caught up in the highlight plays
I thought hollinger did a good job talking about this teaam before Horford got here in his daily dime.
Its hard to dominate if you are the third or fourth option. The thing is Al accepts his role and plays it well. Don’t get me wrong, I think he and Josh are a nice tandem. Perhaps the silver lining in this is that we see Josh realize more of his potential
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by Kris Willis on Jan 13, 2012 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
Please don't tell me that you totally 100% are agreeing with Hollinger? Really Kris?
The same Hollinger that has predicted the Hawks demise year after year?
I read the article. I must admit that it is quite persuasive on the surface. But… sports journalism sometimes has to be treated much like political journalism, meaning take everything as half truths because they may not be telling you everything.
Here it is… In 06/07, the Hawks were in the third year of rebuilding a franchise that was fumbling. Joe Johnson was in the second year of his contract. It was Josh’s third year in the league after jumping from high school to the pros. Marvin was in his second year after taking the 1-and-done route to the NBA. Marvin was adjusting to new found expectations of a #2 pick but had not started a game since high school. Zaza Pachulia, after playing minimally in Orlando and Milwaukee, came to Atlanta and immediately started for the Hawks after the tragic passing of Jason Collier (RIP). Zaza came to Atlanta still only 21 years old.
These guys were in the second year of what has become a 7 year bond. They were young, full of energy, full of promise… they were the beginning. But they were not good. Still young, not used to winning, and not a good team around them. Sheldon Williams was drafted ahead of Brandon Roy, Rudy Gay, and Rajon Rondo. Salim Staudamire was drafted early in the second round to play real minutes for a youthful, up and coming squad.
That year Royal Ivey traded point guard duties with Tyronne Lue, Salim, and Anthony Johnson, because Craig “Speedy” Claxton (the reasoning for drafting Marvin over Chris Paul), career died as soon as he walked into the Hawks gym. Lorenzen Wright and Esteban Batista were back ups to Zaza. Check out that roster: http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/atlanta-hawks/team/roster/07/1/1
It was horrible, but we knew what we would get because it was a building process. The places weren’t set, key pieces still need to be added. But they were improving ever so slightly. 13 to 26, that year they would make it to 30.
The ’07 – ’08 season would mark the beginning of a new era of winning for the Hawks. After picking the wrong guys for two consecutive drafts, the third time was the charm. The Hawks drafted Al Horford with the 3rd pick and followed that with Acie Law at number 11. The Hawks were beginning to put things into their proper place.
Speedy Claxton tried to make a comback but failed. Zaza was poised to play his 3rd year as the Hawks starting center, but was injured. And so the rookies got their opportunity early. Al proved to be just what the analysts said he was (the most NBA ready player in the draft, a proven winner). Acie Law proved that he was not the the “1” (the one to make us all forget about Chris Paul).
But still, a solid core was forming and in the 4th year of rebuilding primarily through the draft, the Hawks were beginning to win games at a higher rate. The Al, Josh, Marvin frontline was born. Joe was on his way to his 2nd straight All-Star appearance. Zaza struggled dealing with losing his starter role. Josh Childress became the first in the long legacy of 6th men in Atlanta! Shelden Williams was traded to Sacramento for Mike Bibby at the All-Star break.
The Bibby trade was like a match made in heaven. Bibby was coming from being one of the last strongholds of perennial playoff team. He was the show master of the Show in SacTown. Now he was coming to the ATL to head the show in the Highlight Factory. Everything seemed to get better and better. They only won 7 more games that year but 37 wins was enough to get their first playoff birth since 1999 when they got swept in the 2nd round by the Knicks.
The Hawks would go on to push Boston to 7 games and scare the daylights out of the whole basketball world.
What happens after that? Something about Josh Childress and Olympiacos, Mo Evans and Flip Murry, Jamal Crawford, Joe Smith and Josh Powell and some guy named Mario West. I don’t know its kind of blurred now.
But through it all, the Hawks were learning how to win. The pieces weren’t always traditional but Al, Josh, Joe, Zaza, and Marvin were winning together.
The thing that has made this team better is not one player but rather a group of players. This core has gotten better as a unit and the pieces around them have been gradually elevated.
Joe is a 5-time All-Star, Smoove is still one of the most unique talents in the world and may soon end his tenure on the All- AllStar Snub team. Marvin has a new back and is making his presence felt every night. Teague is fulfilling the promise he made against Rose in last years playoffs. And the Mac has returned.
There is too much talent, too much experience, and too much pride in this team to just lay down. This is not the same team as 06/07. Marvin, Joe, Josh, and Zaza are not the same young Hawks that are just trying to learn how to win together. They know what it takes to win. They play team defense. They move the ball, find the open man, and put points on the board (7th highest scoring pct).
Yes Al is a major part of this team and core. Yes Al was privileged to make the playoffs in his rookie season (albeit on a team 8 games below .500). Yes Al has been a leader for this team.
But he was not the sole reason for the Hawks’ winning.
Hollinger’s comparison between this team to the 05’ – ’07 team is absurd. And you should know that Kris. That comparison is like comparing the Charlotte team on Thursday to the Hawks team on Thursday. There was a vast contrast. That Charlotte team just is not good. That Hawks team without Al on Thursday is still a very good team, and there are other pieces still waiting to get back.
Hollinger never likes the Hawk’s chances and Al’s injury only gives him another reason to doubt this team. But the Hawks always prove him wrong.
And I needed this history lesson why?
As I said below, Hollinger’s assumption was very easy to get picked apart. I even considered doing it myself but you completely ignore the fact that Horford was one of the missing pieces. I mean you act as though this team was going to turn into a 50 win team had Phoenix gotten the pick that season. Which I simply think would have been devastating to the franchise.
I don’t believe I ever said that Horford was the sole reason for this team winning. I never wrote that the Hawks were headed to the lottery because Horford was injured.
@Kris_Willis
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Not that you needed a history lesson...
I know that you know the history of the Hawks as well as anyone.
But it had to be said to put things in to perspective. Of course Al was a big part of what the Hawks would do in subsequent years. That is the main reason I have been ranting about his play of late; because I want the Hawks to get to the next level, just like everyone else. And as a captain, leader, and All-Star on this team, I wanted more from Al. I want more from Josh, Marvin, Joe, and Teague. If I am at fault for that then so be it.
But everything that the Hawks do now is focused on team play. Its team defense and sharing the wealth on offense. So like I said, while Al’s presence will be missed, as long as they stay true to the concept of team everything, the Hawks will be able to continue to win.
I agree Smoove is the most talented of the Hawks
That has not always translated into being the MVP.
Smoove if he stays focused and under control, stays true to his strengths, has top 20 talent potential in the league. I believe he has played at top 50 level.
My point about comparing Lion to Chandler was from a leadership perspective, not defensive presence. Chandler is a defensive beast. The others you mention (Haslem, Wallace, Odom) to me don’t bring combination of offense and defense Lion brings. I also don’t put Wallace and Odom leadership at same level as Lion. For Detroit it used to be Billups and Rasheed. For Lakers, the Black Mamba is peerless. For Heat, an off the bench player should not be compared to an All Star.
As for defensive comparison between Smoove and Al, they both brings strengths. They complement. I would have to give the edge to Smoove overall. Smoove is better at weak side defense and shot blocking. Smoove is better at steals. They are equal in defensive rebounding. Lion is better at defending men of bigger size and positioning and blocking out. Lion is better at perimeter defense (remember him defending Nash and BJ???).
We shall wait and see with this iteration of Hawks, I am of the firm opinion, we need a good serviceable big man to complement Smoove or he will get exhausted now. As is, I don’t think we have a chance of beating upper tiers of East and making playoffs is no certainty.
Ha...
I remember Mike Woodson getting thoroughly chewed for that horrible switching defense that put Al and Smoove out on the perimeter guarding guards.
But Smoove and Al had a thing going for sure. But for Smoove, this is his time to step up. He has no choice. But with this new approach to team defense and no blatant defensive liabilities (alas JCrossover and the Bibster), the burden of Al’s loss will be shared.
I agree with you, another capable center (more capable than Collins that is) has to be added. I think that that’s a given.
we still switch. And I remember Al was lauded for covering Steve Nash great.
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 14, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
my bad We still switch, just not as overstated.
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 14, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
ahh... I don't know.
Maybe there needs to be some confirmation about that. From what I remember, Steve Nash scorched Al and the Hawks with that switching D.
Again, not completely sure, but if I remember it correctly, Steve Nash had his way.
Well I remember "bet it hit rim" lauding Al for switching.
Thats when I knew Nash was done.
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 14, 2012 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
they are redundantly flawed. Both point forwards with flawed half court games.
Horford is not as physically built as Karl Malone. 25 and 10…That’s a tall order.
But to reiterate maybe you guys should watch Smith closer. He and Horford take the same shots. Neither can spread the floor. Both tweeners.
Are backcourt is set but here is that Shaun Powell quote again:
" The Hawks have always weighed the merits of keeping, or moving, Smith and Horford. Both are tweeners. Horford is undersized at center but doesn’t have a face-the-basket game for power forward. Smith has crazy athleticism and skills for someone 6-foot-10* but too often falls in love with 20-foot jumpers."
*misinformation: Smith is not 6’10
Horford needs a true center and a true small forward. ie Okafor + Granger
Smith needs a true center and a PF who plays like a small forward. Ie Dirk + Okafor/Chandler
Putting Horford + Smith + center becomes a nightmare coaching offense. Even the fastbreaks would stink because everyone would run to the rim and there would be no trailing ability.
My observation Smoove vs. Al comes up all the time because they don’t cover each others flaws on Offense and so we NEED Marvin and it looks ugly at times. Post games, points in paint, 28th in Rebounding.
Now we got Vlad and we might be less talented but it looks much smoother and some fans are fed up.
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 13, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Here is the point and I have said this before but people keep repeating same mistake you are making
It is about getting a center. Not about removing one of those two.
Getting good big men is never easy. All Hawks needed all these years, was a rotation with a true center. With four legit big men (including Marvin) and a fifth (Zaza) we would have been beasting. We would have been the Lakers of the East with three towers.
Instead people keep talking about sending one away.
We don’t need a superstar center. Just a serviceable one that can start alongside two of them.
Lion and Smoove clearly have good enough outside shot, that if focus was on a inside presence, we would have been beasting. That was a championship rotation.
Alas… It is now all a dream with no Lion and no serviceable center
You lost me at
“Horford and Smoove clearly have good enough outside shot”.
You got Smith passing up 3s to Rad and Teague and going out of his way, posting up defenders from the 3 pt line. Which is what we want him to do.
Radmanovic can step out. Horford can’t step out. Smith can’t.
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 13, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
I mean lets not pretend Smith is a classic SF.
But at the same time lets not pretend he is playing the best basketball of his career and it has to do with him getting the knockdown PF shooter he asked for.
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 13, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
More like Lion hate
No one’s saying he’s a bad player, Horford just isn’t a great player and shouldn’t have ever been voted into the All-Star game.
yeah right
I never said anyone said he’s a bad player. But who was going to get over him as a reserve all-star? Just because he doesn’t demand the ball 20+ times doesn’t mean he isn’t a great player. You guys need to get over yourselves
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
Point taken...
Al benefited from a lack of quality centers on winning teams both years. No one really qualified. Brook Lopez if he were on a better team may have. Andrew Bogut has had bad luck with injuries. Noah has Rose and is not attributed to the success of the Bulls like Horford is. And Horford is not great if that’s what you are implying. No way is he great. He is not. Al is a good player but not a franchise changing player. Not in the least bit. Al is good with other good players but no way is he a player that anyone would start a team with. Al is a glue guy, a guy that you plug into a system to be consistent, a good locker room guy, and a guy that the team can depend on to bring the same effort every night aka Kurt Thomas/Brad Miller.
Okay, time to make a serious response to this
Horford plays both ways. He’s a good defensive player, he defends the pick and roll better than almost any center in the league. He’s long and he’s quick. Brook Lopez? Come on. Part of the reason he is not on a better team is because he does NOT play defense or rebound. People want to call Horford “soft,” but listen, Brook Lopez is soft. If you want to call Horford soft, you’re really talking about how he’s passive on the offensive end. It would definitely benefit him to demand the ball more and attack more often, but that’s not his game. On defense, though, he doesn’t back down from a challenge, and he and Josh Smith are a big part of the reason we survived having Bibby for so long. They’re long and quick and strong with the help defense.
Do not respond to this with “13 and 7” since we’re talking about previous years, and Horford’s All-Star selections, which he seriously earned.
Last year, Horford had a PER over 20 (which is generally an area restricted to stars). Quick comparison with the guys that you mentioned: Noah’s PER was 18.8 (Noah is better than he gets credit for, by the way), Bogut’s was 16.7, Brook Lopez was 19.3 PER, of course, doesn’t tell the whole story-it doesn’t really say anything about defense.
Another thing I look to look at are win shares, or even, win shares per 48 minutes. It tells you how much a guy contributes to winning during his time on the floor-essentially, the difference in scoring margin during the time they were on floor versus the time they were not. Horford produced .179 WS/48, a well above average rate. Lopez was at .105, Noah at .205 (underrated, like I said), and Bogut was at .112.
Horford is also a more efficient scorer, by far, than the others that you mentioned. His True shooting , his eFG, those blow the other three out of the water. When he scores, he does so very effectively. His assist rate was much, much higher than those others, and in fact, higher than many other centers. He gets his teammates involved.
So is he a superstar? No. But you can see how he can be both a glue guy and a great player. He earns his All-Star berths not because Brook Lopez plays on a bad team, or because Andrew Bogut gets hurt, but because he’s seriously a better center than those guys. The only guy that you mentioned who is arguably on the same level is Noah, but Noah isn’t the offensive player that his friend is.
I’m really tired of the Horford hate-I don’t know what he’s done to deserve it, other than having so many people who appreciate him.
Braves will be fine. I'm not worried.
by Bronn on Sep 18, 2011 4:26 PM EDT
Man the center position is weak across the board.
That’s why the Hawks can get away with Al playing Center 4 out of 5 nights. The most dominant legit centers (at both ends of the court) in the game are Dwight, Bynum, Nene, and Marc Gasol. Nene is arguably in the same boat as Al,in that he would better be suited to play PF. Marc and Bynum are still new to that tier in a sense, so Horford is a beneficiary of his time.
And its no Horford hate. The fact is he is 1 of 3 of the best players on the team, order is debatable but whatever the case, he has no accountability for when this team under-performs.
No one can be excluded from criticism, especially a leader of the team. If Al is excluded then you or anyone else shouldn’t expect anything more than a 2nd round exit, because its not always that Joe came up short or Josh made too many stupid plays. Sometimes Al didn’t step up. Sometimes Al played poorly, believe it or not. Sometimes it was Al that needed to play at a higher level.
Its about wanting more from everyone on the court. Josh has to bring the energy but play within himself and play at that level where his athleticism is something to be envied. Joe has to be that clutch player, that 4th quarter player, that player that draws double teams to create open shots for the other guys. Joe has to make shots. Well Al has more than consistent because we don’t have anyone else ready to be an All-Star. Its Al, Joe, and Josh and that’s obviously how its gonna be.
The Hawks will have to do with out him for a while, hopefully he is back in time for the playoffs, but when he gets back he has to be even hungrier than before. Now I am sure he will get a pass in the playoffs coming off of injury but LD said that there are “no excuses” this year, and I am riding with it.
Okay, it IS Horford hate when you’re trying to discredit the legitimacy of his All-Star selections. He’s one of the two-three best centers in this conference every year. He could be the best center in this conference at some point if Dwight leaves, and if he stays there.
I understand you want him to take criticism when the team struggles, and that’s fair. That’s not the issue here-you seem to be seriously underrating his value to the team, which bothers me immensely. On that note, I will however see this: When I call Josh Smith out, it’s for his lackluster effort. He gets a lot of this, because he’s the one guy where you can most easily tell the difference between when he’s going all-out and when he’s just going through the motions.
But that’s really beside the point here. I don’t want people dismissing Horford’s ability. He was really our best player over the last two years. He was struggling this year, and it was problematic, and now we’re not going to get a chance to learn if he was going to get back on track. Just remember that his adjusted on/off numbers made him the most valuable player on the team the past two seasons because he was a consistent producer, and a better defender than people are giving him credit for. His struggles to defend Dwight Howard aren’t something you can indict him for-he’s had really good defensive games against any other big man you can name. Dominant ones, even. And that’s even while he’s had to chance around guards over the last three years because Bibby couldn’t slow anyone down.
Braves will be fine. I'm not worried.
by Bronn on Sep 18, 2011 4:26 PM EDT
About Horford stepping up. He is better than guys that can't step up on defense ie Lopez.
But Win Shares rewards role players/shows how important it is to have a guy who can affect the game without shooting.
Jdewayneatl is saying Horford did not/could not step up to score at times. And he has a valid point.
Guys who take a lot of shots get penalized at times. I can’t picture Al as a volume scorer because of his lack of FTA. You don’t have to foul him to guard him and he’ll shoot you out of playoff games if you iso him all day.
The ball has to go to Smith and Horford plugs holes. If we had a go to guy like Dirk or maybe just a PF version of Joe Johnson then Smith could/would plug holes.
Smith is a smart player deferring to 3 pt shooters. But should we penalize him for taking shots that Marvin or Horford can’t even get off in iso situations?
I remember someone put Marvin ahead of him as guys who should be taking jumpers… You know you have to give him the ball to do that.
Marvin is a vet of how many years and still has yet to earn his teammates trust with the ball. Maybe that’s harsh. He earns and loses it with his inconsistency and whos guarding him.
Via ajc, Drew had said they were telling Al to shoot inside more. He tries to do that at times and the way he ends his isolations positions (passing or awkward shot and no FTA) does not lead to me giving him shots if I’m the PG.
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 14, 2012 2:22 AM EST up reply actions
I've always compared Horford to David Lee (Just stronger)
Both of them are capable of shooting the outside jumpshot
both can be 20 pg 10 reb players any given year
both provide little to be desired defense against REAL centers.
both aren’t passers (not that you expect your forward to be)
Andrwe Bogut however is an elite defender. He can change the shots of big-men not just guards.
What I really think that separates John Smith from Horf is the degree of difficulty of his plays.
David Lee is a pretty soft defender
Horford is not. He’s a lot more like a Shawn Kemp, IMO.
Braves will be fine. I'm not worried.
by Bronn on Sep 18, 2011 4:26 PM EDT
Thank you bronn for posting that
You take everything that I think about Horford and put it into actual words. His value just doesnt show up in the stats if thats what people want to look at. I dont want to argue because if people dont realize how great of not only a player but leader he is then they need to go back and watch past seasons games. Jesus im just getting sick of the horford hate coming from the “fans” of this team
Larry Drew makes me think I can coach at a professional level.\
Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light in fear of Ivan Johnson
Shawn Kemp.......Interesting.
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 14, 2012 2:11 AM EST up reply actions
this is laughable
And not worth a reply
@Kris_Willis
+Kris Willis
facebook.com/krisawillis
by Kris Willis on Jan 13, 2012 11:11 PM EST up reply actions
I am going to throw this out there even though I know it is going to get picked apart
I even considered a post where I picked it apart but it does have some merit. It shouldn’t even have to be said but since a big part of this fanbase is intent on having some sort of conflict whether it be Joe vs Josh or Josh vs Al. It is always something.
This team has never missed the playoffs with Al Horford on the roster. Of our current starting five, Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Marvin Williams and Zaza Pachulia all were starters the year before Horford was drafted. Atlanta’s record that season was 30-52. A different time with a different point guard. A complete different set of circumstances but there is still merit that Horford filled a lot of holes that the team had.
Credit John Hollinger for the above info
@Kris_Willis
+Kris Willis
facebook.com/krisawillis
by Kris Willis on Jan 13, 2012 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
I seriously dont understand how some people here think that horford isnt that valuable
there are some things that you cannot record in the boxscore. One famous example is altered shots near the rim (josh smith). We cant record that just like the number of times horford had to bail out jamal or bibby by giving darn good help defense when they got burned by the person they were “suppose” to be guarding. Some people here need to realize that we are not only losing a great player, but also a hard worker and leader that keeps many of these players (josh smith) together.
Oh and kris I believe they also mentioned on espn of how Al is pretty much the only one on the team with championship pedigree leading Florida to the back to back championships.
Larry Drew makes me think I can coach at a professional level.\
Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light in fear of Ivan Johnson
PG was the huge difference
With Mike Bibby we didn’t have to give Acie Law, T. Lue, or Anthony Johnson as many minutes.
We were 21-29 without Bibby (.420 winning percentage)
With Bibby the Hawks went 16-16 (.500 winning percentage)
Darn - i look like a fool
As soon as I complained there is no instant reaction, Jason posts one! What if I ask for a seven footer, would I get one?
Still, a good night by the Hawks.
Smoove played superb. Crisp passes (ok let’s forget about the jump shot airball pass to JJ), scoring inside and out. I stand my ground, he can hit the in rhythm jumpshots (that was for Hawks Straight Talk).
Keeping Ivan Johnson is the best move LD has made. Dude can flat out ball. Just control the aggression.
I like JJ aggressive mode.
Teague and Zaza were good.
Now a point to our sponsors about Rad – - Dude take the freaking jump shot. That is why you are on this team. Quit driving to the basket (did you not learn from getting your face stuffed in Indiana game?) or passing the open shot.
A good win, but I am still restless pending games vs. Wolves and Blazers.
I still says we need a big man like right now
Pryzbilla is out there.
Ivan may be our version of Dajuan Blair. He is solid enough to play bigger than his height down low. He can definitely body anyone in the league of the block excluding Dwight. But he would even drive Dwight crazy if he is free to use all 6 fouls in about 10 minutes.
Dwight would resent Atlanta so much have to go up against Collins, Zaza, and Ivan. Dwight would be missing free throws all night.
by jdewayneatl on Jan 12, 2012 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
hmm that is a name from the past
Does he still play? He can rebound that is for sure. Was he not hurt though?
I really like that new Bobcats center whatever his name is. Kid really has skills. I wonder if we can fool MJ to give him up for Pargo or something. He did give up Gerald Wallace after all. I then be happy
Good rebounder and shot blocker.
I think with Zaza starting, Pryzbilla could provide something that the Hawks have not had in this recent era, which is a shot blocker off the bench.
Not as sure about Ivan, actually
He plays bigger, but he’s undersized. When Zaza went out in the first half and we had Ivan at center, we really struggled. Charlotte wasn’t worried about another big body, and they collapsing inside, and we had a lot of missed layups. Ivan wasn’t rebounding enough misses or drawing enough defensive attention to make up for it.
I did like his energy in the second half, though.
Braves will be fine. I'm not worried.
by Bronn on Sep 18, 2011 4:26 PM EDT
Zaza went out because he was playing soft
Ivan is definitely undersized as a center. Should never play center. But when Zaza is fumbling and not playing D, I see why LD did what he did. I think Ivan got one block.
In second half Zaza played better, but my concern is at the beginning of games, against other team’s starters, we are in trouble with Zaza. And Ivan is not the right choice, hence the dilemma
Somewhat agree with @ATLpaul
But Ivan can prolly give spot minutes for sure playing Center. But for the long haul, the Hawks will have to bring in someone to play behind Zaza because Collins is only built to bang with Dwight.
Ivan's Aggression
I’m perfectly fine with his aggression. He’s never going to be asked to play 30 minutes, so it’s not like he has to worry about foul trouble. I love the idea of him and Zaza coming in and just banging bodies and frustrating the crap out of the other team. Every team knows that Zaza is crazy enough to head butt people, and Ivan looks like he would settle his disputes in the parking lot.
Who is going to mess with this team?
by danielduello on Jan 13, 2012 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
We catch a break, sort of
J.J. Barea and Brittney Griner, I mean Michael Beasley will not play on Saturday
Any and all new Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer factoids must be approved by Ivan Johnson
by a hooter's baby on Jan 12, 2012 11:57 PM EST reply actions
Beasley is a beast
One of my all time favorite scorers. I die to trade Marvin for him.
But that is a really strange team.
They have a better point guard in the Spanish kid that comes off the bench.
And they sit the number 2 pick on the bench. I just don’t get it. Why draft him, if you don’t play him.
We will see the new Kevin Love vs. Smoove. He finally lost the fat I had been complaining about when people were arguing with me. Seems like he agrees he was fat. In the past he has melted when he has met the Hawks, but this time, Hawks are really shorthanded. It be interesting to see.
Smoove vs. Love....Psssh
I’m excited for Zaza vs. Darko
Any and all new Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer factoids must be approved by Ivan Johnson
by a hooter's baby on Jan 13, 2012 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
hahaha hell yeah
its like my fisher vs. bibby matchup you know i love
Larry Drew makes me think I can coach at a professional level.\
Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light in fear of Ivan Johnson
Fisher vs. Bibby
was exciting in 2000-2001. Now, not so much
Any and all new Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer factoids must be approved by Ivan Johnson
by a hooter's baby on Jan 13, 2012 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
it was exciting from 2007-2010 for me
dont you remember how great it was seeing 2 dirty players who cant play defense and only shooting 3 pointers. I mean with them on the floor we didnt need slow motion to see their crossovers
Larry Drew makes me think I can coach at a professional level.\
Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light in fear of Ivan Johnson
They flop with the best of 'em
Any and all new Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer factoids must be approved by Ivan Johnson
by a hooter's baby on Jan 13, 2012 12:34 AM EST up reply actions
dont you remember how funny it was watching that one hawks lakers game
they were trying so hard
Larry Drew makes me think I can coach at a professional level.\
Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light in fear of Ivan Johnson
do you not see how they switch on every defensive possesion?
who do you think on the coaching staff is responsible for that?
Larry Drew makes me think I can coach at a professional level.\
Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light in fear of Ivan Johnson
Rolling on the floor
No I didn’t see the game. But i think it is just a matter of time if they keep losing
lol... I was watching that the other night with the Knicks.
They were mixing in some zone too, so I couldn’t tell for sure at first.
I thought joakim noah was britney grinner lol
Larry Drew makes me think I can coach at a professional level.\
Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light in fear of Ivan Johnson
Thats a bad thing
Considering Beasley is awful at NBA basketball
Here's a name from the past for you
I just read that Rasheed Wallace wants to return to the NBA. He’s a career what, 16 and 7?
The last thing I want are he and Josh playing together
AT this point his career, it’s not worth it. I’d rather take the most promising F/C in the D-League and put him on the roster. Then I wouldn’t have to deal with egos, and I’d have a guy that I know is young enough to provide some energy.
It worked with Ivan Johnson.
Braves will be fine. I'm not worried.
by Bronn on Sep 18, 2011 4:26 PM EDT
How can you turn down this face?
Any and all new Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer factoids must be approved by Ivan Johnson
by a hooter's baby on Jan 13, 2012 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
I like Rasheed
He is a winner. I am not at all afraid of him.
But
He had gained weight when he jonied the Cs. And he only got his game back in playoffs. I am not sure how much he got left.
You aren't afraid of Wallace or Iverson
There has to be someone. J.R. Rider? Ruben Patterson?
Any and all new Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer factoids must be approved by Ivan Johnson
by a hooter's baby on Jan 13, 2012 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
Never liked JR Rider
And by the way, I have been on record against trading for Cousins.
I love Cousins game.
But when it was suggested during game thread to swap Smoove for Cousins, I stated flat out Cousins is a cancer. Smoove is just a problem child.
Iverson has game and at this stage of his career will be fine as a backup. He would have been better value than Pargo. And remember, ticket sales factor? Did you see how empty the place was tonight????
Iverson
Even if he stood outside scalping tickets, they still wouldn’t come close to selling out a game vs. the Bobcats
Any and all new Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer factoids must be approved by Ivan Johnson
by a hooter's baby on Jan 13, 2012 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
True that
I now I think have seen Bobcats three times
I still don’t get why MJ drafted that Biyombo kid. I mean I see nothing from him. Why does MJ not hire a GM to pick?
MJ has an ego
He wants to prove that he’s a better GM than what he showed in WAS. I think Biyombo will be fine. He’s still raw but his defense is pretty good. Not a drop of offense though
Any and all new Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer factoids must be approved by Ivan Johnson
by a hooter's baby on Jan 13, 2012 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
is Nelly still a co-owner or did he give that up
Larry Drew makes me think I can coach at a professional level.\
Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light in fear of Ivan Johnson
Nah
Jordan owns the whole thing
Any and all new Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer factoids must be approved by Ivan Johnson
by a hooter's baby on Jan 13, 2012 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
well then sucks to be a bobcat fan
Larry Drew makes me think I can coach at a professional level.\
Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light in fear of Ivan Johnson
When didn't it suck to be a Bobcats fan?
Any and all new Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer factoids must be approved by Ivan Johnson
by a hooter's baby on Jan 13, 2012 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
................wow you got me
that year of hope when they thought adam morrison was good?
Larry Drew makes me think I can coach at a professional level.\
Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light in fear of Ivan Johnson
I think thats it
Any and all new Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer factoids must be approved by Ivan Johnson
by a hooter's baby on Jan 13, 2012 12:49 AM EST up reply actions
I just learned
Shaq really hates Dwight Howard
Any and all new Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer factoids must be approved by Ivan Johnson
by a hooter's baby on Jan 13, 2012 12:06 AM EST reply actions
That sleek hair ref is my least favorite ref in NBA
He always calls against Hawks. I can see why LD was worried when arguing with him
love the caption
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 13, 2012 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
Options
- Joel Pryzbilla – Free Agent; 7,1", 245lbs; Says he feels the best he’s felt in a while
- Solomon Alabi – 7’1", 252lbs; 11.7ppg, 6.2reb (at FSU in 09’-10’)
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/solomon-alabi
- Courtney Sims – 7’1", 245lbs, 16.7ppg, 9.6reb, Is there any way we could steal him from Latvia?
by BravesFanScout on Jan 13, 2012 12:21 AM EST reply actions
its a sad day when I consider Pryzbilla a good option
Larry Drew makes me think I can coach at a professional level.\
Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light in fear of Ivan Johnson
Isn’t Alabi a Raptor?
No way is Pryzbilla 245. Pryzbilla and Alabi are the same height but Alabi is 7 lbs heavier than Pryzbilla? Gorilla is like 260-270 at least!
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 13, 2012 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
Height and weight numbers have never been consistent across the internet
@Kris_Willis
+Kris Willis
facebook.com/krisawillis
In regards to Rasheed Wallace
HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you thought Josh’s attitude, shot selection and timing of getting techs was frustrating……..
Larry Drew makes me think I can coach at a professional level.\
Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light in fear of Ivan Johnson
True he does like to get Ts
But look at the positive side, Smoove then doesn’t have to get Ts to prove a point to the ref, since we know LD will never get one and not complain to ref.
So we can waste the Ts with Rasheed getting them and not get Smoove in trouble.
Gotta a trade special...
Marvin and Zaza to N.O. for Emeka Okafor. Salaries are almost perfect. Okafors salary ends the same year as Marvs.
Really hate to lose Marvin right now but he’s not exactly unreplaceable. Okafor is wildly overpaid but he’ll be a stop gap until Al is healthy and be one of the best back up centers in the league.
I gaurentee you that what hawks fans remain in GA
will riot in the streets if zaza is traded
Larry Drew makes me think I can coach at a professional level.\
Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light in fear of Ivan Johnson
I don't understand.
I thought our season was over.
Was this game an exhibition game?
Go Hawks!
GATA!
It is easy to understand
Bobcats are toothless. You are being premature in your jubilation and celebration. There are more dangerous creatures to deal with in Wolves on Saturday – we wait and see, even though those creatures are not at the top of food chain.
I suggest caution on amount of celebration till after Blazers game. We still need a seven footer
yeah we gonna get stomped
And I would not say “seven footer” most are flawed plodders or idiots with ludicrous defense. (Krylo anyone smh)
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 13, 2012 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
The new Spanish kid is an eye opener
That coach is making a mistake bringing him off the bench. If you have not see him in play, he is a lot like Rondo. A termendous passer, with superb vision, but not a lot of scoring.
Them not having Beasley is good, not sure i have seen enough of number 2 draft pick yet to pass judgement on him.
Wolves have given teams a hard time. Example: Heat had a very difficult time beating them in north pole where they played.
And Smoove normally handcuffs Love, but now Smoove has to play center, small forward and PF, so Love will get freedom to do some damage.
It won’t be an easy game
Fun to watch, but not exactly racking up wins yet
We’re catching Minnesota in a transition period. They’ve not yet decided who should be on the court most often which leaves them vulnerable and some of them are struggling with Adelman’s system. The Hawks should be able to play well enough to win even without Al in the lineup. Having said that they are a better test of the inside than the Bobcats who are really struggling to put forth a good effort.
The bigger tests of the C position come in the road trip at the end of the month when we face Milwaukee, San Antonio, Detroit, and New Orleans. Then February is loaded with bad matchups. I’m more concerned with consistent effort and performance from the rest of the lineup than I am about losing the C matchup though.
very true about Adelman
I think he is trying to figure out this team.
I think they have a hard decison coming with Beasley and Williams.
Rubio and Barea.
I see a bright future for them, as long as they can hold on to Kevin Love.
As for the Hawks, Minnesota, Portland, Sixers are tough upcoming tests that will tell us what we need to know.
Look...
What you fail to realize is we don’t have to beat the best teams to make it into the playoffs, when, hopefully, Horford will return.
As long as the Hawks continue to destroy, not just beat, crappy teams like Charlotte, we’ll be fine. Plus, as evidenced by the Miami Heat beating our full-strength Hawks team without Wade and James, it’s possible our Hawks could upset perennial NBA contenders like Minnesota and Portland.
I’m not sugar-coating the Horford injury, but let’s not pretend he was the only difference between us being one of the top teams in the league and us being at the bottom of the trash heap, especially when half of the league makes the playoffs…Last time I checked, we still had two All-Stars on our roster.
GATA!
Correction...
Two All-Star-caliber players. We have other former All-Stars on the roster, but, yeah…
GATA!
Lion is not going to be back this year
He is out 3-4 months, needs to then get strong in shoulder, needs to get back in shape, and then playing shape. I don’t want him back this year, he is needed long term for the wars ahead, not when he is just getting warmed up.
Hawks are not going to beat many medium to good teams with a lineup of Smoove-Zaza-Rad/Marvin. That lineup simply is not strong enough defensively to protect the basket.
Can we make it to playoffs? It is possible. I am not very optimistic. And even if we do, we get crushed in the first round. What is the point? Can you help me understand?
It is possible Hawks may win against Wolves and Blazers, it is not probable.
Correction, we only have one official “All Star” on the team now that Lion is out, that is JJ.
Smoove could have/should have been an All Star by now, but not been there yet.
If we can remain competitive through Jan and Feb
Maybe the ownership bites the luxury tax bullet for one year and signs Kenyon Martin when he’s eligible to return to the NBA. I understand their unwillingness to commit to long term salaries, but a one year exception to that strategy might not be a bad idea considering where the core of the team are in terms of age (Joe) and contract (Josh and Jeff).
Again this strategy depends on the core of the team playing for almost 2 months to prove they deserve additional investment.
what position do you like Kenyon at?
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 13, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
I like him as an undersized 5
He can defend the rim. He’s not got the size to be a long term solution at C, but I’m looking at skill set and fitting in on a short run. Fitting into the big man rotation with Zaza/Collins/Johnson. I see him as a dirty work player to fit into the lineup beside Josh allowing Zaza to match up against backups more often. He would also help the rotation of bigs if Horford makes it back for the playoffs.
I’m just skeptical of what is available in trade and to be honest there aren’t a lot of true centers that we need to worry about roughing us up in the playoffs. We just need a big to provide what Al did and I trust a vet like Martin more than a flyer on a young one.
I didn't realize...
He was out for 3-4 months, plus additional months for rehab. Generally, when giving time-frames for injuries, the goal is to have player back and playing at the end of the stated duration. Why even reference a 3-4 month time frame when it’s, according to you, a season-ending injury?
GATA!
additional months for re-hab? That does not even make sense to me. 3-4 months is before he can start rehabbing?
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 13, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Officially
It is a a 3-4 months injury.
IMO, with the intensity that the playoffs are about, and the fact this is in most probability going to require a surgery to attach muscle to bone with some metal parts, I think it is most unlikely he would risk a re-occurrence.
I personally have dislocated shoulder six times. Think Lethal weapon movie. First time recovery was the hardest. And longest with rehab. Second time and after it got easier but then i essentially have no ligaments left. So in the case of first time, i needed longer rehab because of ligament damage that needed healing.
Lion’s case is different. He does not have ligament damage. But the fact about healing is still applicable. Shoulder is one of the most important joints relative to strengthening as related to recovery. I think he can have a full recovery, but he should not rush. I am no Doctor, but just speaking of experience. So take it for what its worth.
Muscle tears are tricky. I don't know if surgery is going to be required, haven't heard.
Rehab is tricky too, since you have to wait longer for healing before you begin rehab with muscle tears than with sprains and bone fractures.
by RamblininAlb on Jan 14, 2012 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
Josh's Jump Shots
Has anyone else noticed that Josh will always take 2-3 jumper at the beginning of each half before he will even think about attacking the basket? It’s like clockwork. I wonder if he worked out a deal with Drew where he was allowed 2 free jumpers per half…
Josh's Aggression
One other thing about Josh. For the record, I make all comments about Josh with a supreme appreciation for his athletic and basketball skills, and the frustration of seeing some of them wasted.
What happened to Josh’s aggression? He is so passive down low that too many people are trying to block his shot, making it much tougher to score around the basket. When he has an opening, he needs to attack the basket like he wants to rip the rim off. Defenders are quickly going to get tired of being on Sportscenter to the point that they will give up if Josh has any wiggle room.
Additionally, those dunks are what really get a relatively passive Atlanta crowd to stand up and start cheering. I know we were playing the Bobcats, but the energy last night was tepid at best. The biggest cheer came from Stack’s dunk. Josh needs to make a point of having at least one dunk in the first half of a home game to get the crowd going.
His shooting percentage at the RIM is sky high though
In fact the highest of his career so far this year.
Smoove shooting percentage for the year at the RIM is at 72.4%. His next highest was at 69% in 2009. Last year he was at 68.9%. Now his attempts at the RIM are higher than last year, but he has been higher in years prior. I think he is attempting less at the RIM because he is making the jumper so far on a consistent basis. His attempts from 16-23 feet are the highest of his career, and his completion rate is second highest of his career.
Now if you are referencing thunder dunks, remember a lot of that was function of Bibby throwing amazing lobs to him. Teague is still learning the the art of throwing lobs. And after last year’s knee problems, Smoove made a conscious decision to lose weight to take pressure off his knees, and to reduce the impact on his body when dunking so he is laying the ball more. As we have seen several times already this year, he can dunk with the best of them, if he gets upset.
I do agree he is the energy man, with his blocks and dunks. He simply is THE MAN
Id love us to go after Robin Lopez
he is another good big that plays good when he gets minutes and hes buried on his bench like mullens was(who is looking like a steal right now).
Four rebounds? Byron is looking like a tweener
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 13, 2012 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
Lopez blows layups and is a worse crybaby than his brother. He's slammed practice facility doors in pickup games and once intentionally tried to make
Gortat look bad on their inital meeting. He has no confidence in himself. He had not even practiced vs Gortat and thought he’d better start making him look bad off the court.
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1126689
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 13, 2012 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
Brandan Wright of the Mavs would be a low cost buy
probably just a 2nd round pick considering he doesnt play should be able to get it done. He fits the criteria of being tall and athletic, which is something the Hawks seriously lack right now
Anyone worried about Kevin Love?
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
killing us that is? more athletic Smith will have his hands full. And Derrick vs Beasley is addition by subtraction
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 14, 2012 2:23 AM EST up reply actions
To put Derrick at same level as Beasley at this point of his career is just not true
Yes I am a Beasley fan. He blind me with offense!
Regardless Beasley can score. Derrick in time, may be a better player at same position. That time in not now! not today! not in highlight factory!
by ATLpaul on Jan 14, 2012 6:39 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
hope your right I want this win so bad but can Smith/Vlad guard a lighter K-Love? We'll see.
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
by PointGuardSlim on Jan 14, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
Beasley can chuck a basketball up
not very efficient, Derrick Williams is probably better right now
Only worried because Hawks are shorthanded
One on one, he has ZERO chance vs. Smoove.
As has been proven over and over.
But this time, it is Smoove vs. the world. With no Lion, Smoove has to stay back. Love will run to three point line and score. With no Lion, they will attack the basket, after a few times, Smoove will get tired. So I think Love will get his points today. But again, Hawks are way shorthanded on front line. This is the beginning of playing against teams with good front lines that will hurt us
This'll be a true test for Smoove, going up against arguably the best power forward in the game right now.
Ivan Johnson - the new Xavier McDaniel
like Bosh wasn't a true test? Prognosis is still: Undersized and not a superstar. Needs help. Vlad is not enough
* Hawks trade {Al Horford + protected 2nd rounder} for {Perimeter F Jon Leuer and C Andrew Bogut}
* Jeff Teague * Joe Johnson* Jon Leuer * Josh Smith * Andrew Bogut *
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