Joe Johnson Expected To Return To Action Against Orlando
After missing one game with a sprained thumb, Joe Johnson returned to practice today and appears to be set to return to the Atlanta Hawks lineup tomorrow night when they host the Orlando Magic. Hawks Vice President of Public Relations Arthur Triche relayed the news via Twitter:
#Hawks' Joe Johnson has returned to practice today - so he will play tomorrow night vs. Orlando.
Johnson has played in 64 of the Hawks 74 games this season and is averaging 18.5 points and 4.9 assists per contest. Hoopinion writer Bret LaGree reopened the discussion yesterday during his Cleveland recap about what might have been had the Hawks chosen not to resign Joe Johnson.
With Johnson (more or less), the Hawks have taken a damaging step backward. They're sufficiently better than the bottom feeders of the league (and the majority of the Eastern Conference) that they will cruise into the playoffs despite looking futile most of the time against the other 15 teams that will make the playoffs. With another $107 million owed Johnson over the next five seasons, the Hawks appear stuck with this collectively mediocre bunch for the foreseeable future.
Hawks beat writer Michael Cunningham offered his opinion this morning in reply to LaGree's post saying that even with the subtraction of Johnson there was no guarantee that the team would be better off in the long run.
Considering the team’s recent history of drafting, player evaluation, and resource allocation (both in terms of money and player roles), there would be some understandable skepticism about the prospects for such a scenario bearing fruit.
Cunningham goes on to pretty much agree with LaGree given how things have turned out this season.
So, even if you are skeptical that the Hawks could have competently embraced LeGree’s J.J.-less "alternative present" and then made smart moves for the future I’m sure they could have sold the plan. It turns out that would have been better than what they are selling right now.
You guys pretty much know where I stood in this discussion. I wasn't opposed to bringing back Johnson given that I had no confidence that this team could take a step back and come out ahead in the long run. I wasn't the only one that thought Atlanta had to keep Johnson. Former Hawks beat writer Sekou Smith told us that the Hawks had to keep him and couldn't afford to let him walk without getting anything in return. If I was critical of anything, it was that they didn't follow that Johnson signing up with any other significant moves and basically brought back the same roster with a much higher payroll.
While I will offer that hindsight is 20/20, many of you like Bret voiced your displeasure with the signing loudly. Now that the Hawks have given Johnson his money and they have taken a step backwards anyway the situation doesn't look near as promising as it once did. I will close with something I wrote shortly after the contract was signed.
No matter if the Atlanta Hawks bring in more players that are capable, this signing cements the fact that the face of the franchise is Joe Johnson. Joe has to be ready to meet the challenge head on. Much of the criticism surrounding his contract was made because of statistics showing that perimeter players tend to drop off in production in their early thirties. Joe is 29 years old and has to make sure that he is the exception to that rule.
So far Joe hasn't been the exception to the rule however he still remains a now very expensive face of the franchise. There is still time but now there is even more doubts.
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Damn
I wanted to see Marvin at SG again…sigh….I’ll be disappointed if Joe struggles for 20.
PS We are not a jump shooting team.
"The best part is we got the win playing the right way. We’re at our best when we play inside and then out…." Al Horford
Boss for President, Smoove for VP
+1
There is no reason for Joe to play tonight. They aren’t playing to gain playoff position right now and he should have his mind towards the playoffs.
I wonder how many people want to see what this team is made of without him.
ALL OF US.
Falcons, Hawks, Braves, Thrashers, & GSU Panthers: We gotta win one for Atlanta.
by King_of_Hearts on Mar 29, 2011 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
meh
The Hawks are more or less locked into the 5th spot. Why the rush in bringing Joe back? A healthy Joe in the playoffs is far more valuable than an injured Joe trying to play Wednesday in order to make some kind of statement vs Orlando (and more than likely shooting very poorly and dragging the rest of the team down with him).
"...many of you like Bret voiced your displeasure with the signing loudly."

I’ve appreciated your toned-down approach through this, Kris.
One thing Bret harps on a lot, and he's right, is the Hawks' tendency...
…to be reactive rather than proactive. For all the logic that the Hawks NEEDED to sign JJ, what’s often forgotten is that the Hawks had plenty of time to consider how they were going to approach the last offseason.
To me, whether “the contract” was a good idea is less important than the discussion about the Hawks’ lack of a clear plan. It’s infuriating.
WHY??!!
So more……dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble…..I see you Kirk….dribble, dribble….." My bad AL, you really weren’t that open!“……..dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble…..”You missed the last shot Marvin"……dribble, dribble, dribble………"OK #5 I notice you have Jameer Nelson on the block, but hey I didn’t play last game, soooo…….dribble, dribble, dribble. “I guess I take this 35 foot fade away, while the shot clock is running down” ?
BRICK!!!!
by Mr. Hawk on Mar 29, 2011 2:34 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
All the criticism towards JJ so far is deserved.
But if the Hawks make some noise in the post season (which I think they will. Especially with expectations that they won’t win their 1st round series w/ the Magic or the belief that Phillly & NY was going to catch them in the standings) and JJ leads the way then the signing will make sense.
by xavip on Mar 29, 2011 3:21 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I do realize that. But to me the only JJ can justify that contract
Is postseason performance. Lest say JJ avg 22, 6, and 6 in the reg. season. Has he performed performed like a max player? I’d say yes. But when that reg. season doesn’t translate to the playoffs what good was the 22, 6, and 6? But if JJ can turn it up in the postseason like he did in Jan-Feb. then he has earned the contract.
by xavip on Mar 29, 2011 3:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I am still of the opinion
that if the Hawks hope to be competitive in the playoffs then Joe Johnson is going to have to show up and play well. I agree with ATLpaul that he is the key.
@Kris_Willis
The fact
that you said if the Hawks hope to be ‘competitive’ in the playoffs speaks volumes about the Hawks team. As for whether he can justify that contract, well – he just can’t, but that’s not his fault – it’s ASG’s fault for believing he’s better than he is.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Mar 30, 2011 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Going back to 2000
Five different teams have won championships in the NBA. If you go back all the way to 1990, that number swells to seven. There are 30 franchises in the NBA and you have to learn to win before you can compete for a championship IMO.
This all or nothing philosophy that you talk about has as many flaws as the one you are arguing about. There is no one right way to do things.
I would much rather be the Braves than the Pirates who seemingly start over every season.
@Kris_Willis
by Kris Willis on Mar 30, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Point out the flaws
I haven’t said anything about all or nothing and I’d challenge you to find one. There are many issues that are within our control (spending unwisely/bad GM/bad coach/bad player mix/lack of player development) and some that aren’t (not getting the #3 pick and hoping that someone else took Marvin Williams, not having Kobe, LBJ, D Wade, etc). So, your philosophy has some holes in it if you’re comparing MLB franchises to NBA franchises.
In MLB, you either buy a championship (with some player development) or you do a great job of scouting and you run for a title (like the Marlins, etc) and spend until the window closes, then start over with the rebuild. The Braves were championship caliber Braves because they spent money, but as soon as they stopped – they became second fiddle, but competitive Braves. The Pirates on the other hand don’t even try because they can’t afford to do so. They sell their assets as soon as they are developed (if they are developed).
In NBA, you spend your money on top talent and you put draft picks or cheap free agent labor around it that fits the team. You can’t find top talent most of the time outside of the lottery, so the only other time to get it is during free agency (or a trade, but until recently – normally, a top caliber player isn’t traded). So, to your specific point, all I’ve ever said is – if you’re paying Joe top dollar (and we know that we don’t have more top dollar to spend a la the Magic (who had multiple max guys who aren’t really max guys, but can do so because they spend well over the salary cap)), then you’re going to never be really competitive because you don’t have enough to go around to get the rest of the players. Plus, you’re going cheap on the coach, not filling out the available roster spots, and have a GM who has done NOTHING to improve this team’s lot. The Hawks know how to beat bad teams. They don’t and won’t have the firepower (or the mental fortitude) to beat anyone better than them in a postseason atmosphere. That’s just a real statement. I wish it weren’t the case, but if you’re not shooting for the chip (and that means there are steps that have to be taken to get there), then you’re losing in the NBA. That’s why teams blow it up so often because they know they have to find the Durant first, then build around him. The Hawks built around a foundation in JJ and I applauded in ’06, but once we knew it was faulty – to double down was ridiculous.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Mar 30, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I would ask that..
you look at how those championship teams were build out of those 7 and there are some very common themes – real superstars, couple of big money guys and great role players, leadership, great coaching, etc. The only thing I don’t think is faulty is the willingness to spend money on players. ASG has done that. We’ve just spent on the WRONG players because we spent little on scouting, coaching, management. So, I’ve never said I have the perfect formula for this – I do know when the milk is gone bad and it’s curious that I’ve been pretty consistent about this for 3 years. These players have been doing and saying the same things for 3 years, yet people keep hoping for different results.
We’ve always been a pretty right above average team and that’s going to net you 45-50 wins each year and a boot out of the playoffs. if you’re content with competitive, but never a shot at a deep playoff run, then so be it, but I’m not willing to settle for that without calling out what’s ailing this squad. As always, it starts with ownership, then our management sucks, then we’ve had bad coaching, and then our players reflect all of that. To be clear, I would be happy to get to just the ECF. I WANT a title so badly, but I realize there are steps, but I’m very clear about the fact that this team has to hope for D. Howard to get a suspension and some injuries to even be competitive in the playoffs and that’s just the way it is. This team isn’t going to learn how to win. If after 3-4 years together they don’t know how to do that, then they won’t. Period.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Mar 30, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
The kitchen is too hot...
It looks like Joe can’t take the heat his contract has generated.
There are a lot of other factors that go into the equation besides just the contract
Besides are you telling me you wouldn’t have signed it?
@Kris_Willis
I am not mad at him..
I would have signed the contract. I am not mad at him because he took the money….I am mad because he isn’t atleast the player he was last year.
What other factors are effecting his production. He is getting more open shots, his teammates are better but his production is down. If it’s not the contract…then what?
injuries for one
I question how healthy he has been the entire season. Then the offense nor the team has performed as expected. No matter his struggles he is still the focal point of the defense night in and night out.
@Kris_Willis
In fact
I am not sure how healthy he has been the last two seasons given how quicky the elbow injury surfaced this season.
@Kris_Willis
Be honest...
He should be honest about his injuries and wait until they heal. He is trying to rush back from this injury. I understand this is an important game but we need him as healthy as possible.
I also think the offense has suffered because he hasn’t performed lately. He creates difficult shots for himself because he holds the ball too long(probably think about that contract..Lol). If he played more like Ray Allen, he would get better scoring chances.
PS. He didn’t have a problem with the offense when he was trying to make the allstar team.
Point taken with the all-star comment.
by xavip on Mar 29, 2011 5:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Where did he ever say that he was trying to make the All-Star team?
I never read that anywhere other than in this comments section.
Point being would you rather have a guy making a $100 million that thinks his place is on the court or a guy making $100 million that sits everytime he gets a hangnail?
I will take option No. 1 everytime
@Kris_Willis
He never said it. But it's ironic (and devil's advocate) when you look at
The entire season, the only time JJ looked like JJ was at the All-Star break. Now if JJ has another stretch like that in him that comment can’t be made.
by xavip on Mar 29, 2011 5:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
See my reply below
Just a coincidence in my opinion. It was debatable as to whether or not he should have made the team anyway given how many games he missed.
@Kris_Willis
Ok, I hope JJ shows us something during the playoffs, Hell make me eat my words PLEASE!!
Not dogging the contract out too much, but what has it benefited the entire team?
Would I have given him the contract? NO!
He’s not a max player, or a good leader.
Is he planning on doing something more in the playoffs than he done in the regular season? If so, WHAT?
by Mr. Hawk on Mar 29, 2011 3:44 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
look
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqEMxVuL9kk&feature=related
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
by maxxj3 on Mar 29, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
27th leading scorer in the NBA
18.5 per
27th leader in assists
4.9 per
124th in 3 point%
.304
92nd in rebounds
4.1 per
78th in FG%
.44
That’s what a Max player is supposed to be? Someone give me some insight.
by Mr. Hawk on Mar 29, 2011 4:31 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Let's put numbers in perspective
JJ at 18.5 per game is number 4 in NBA SG in scoring. He is behind D-Wade, Kobe, and Monte Ellis and Kevin Martin of Houston. Not bad right?
JJ at 4.9 assists per game is 3rd in assist in NBA among shooting guards, who is better? You be amazed to know: Ginobli, Kobe. Not bad, yes????
There is no defending JJ’s 3 point shooting, so let’s not do that.
He is 9th among shooting guards in rebounding.
He is 5th among shooting guards in field goals made, sixth in field goals attempted.
And get this, he is 7th in shooting guards efficiency in the league.
And remember, he has been injured for at least half the game (understand he was played injured before surgery, and came back too soon).
So I say that is context….
Depends on your interpertation of "IS" (feel free to substiture Max for IS)
IMO, there are two tiers of Max.
There is Max playered to the top echelon. That is Kobe, D-Wade, Lebron, Durant, Nowitzki, muscleman Howard. soon D-Williams/Rose/CP3. JJ is not that type of max.
Then you have the next level max, which include Bosh, JJ, Stoudemire, Melo, Iggy, Wallace, KG, Pierce, Rondo…
JJ is in the next level of talent. Depending on seniority and team’s position in hierarchy, a team may feel to pay max to any of the above. So it is not a clear definition. Or else, one can also argue whether Rashard Lewis or Arenas are max or not…
There is no such thing as "two tiers of max"
The definition of max is the most, the highest. Whatever you think is the “second tier” by definition is no longer max.
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
The problem is that the true "Max" players are worth more
relative to the league than they are allowed to make. So no, JJ isn’t worth as much as Lebron, for example – but by the same token he is worth substantially more (or was at the time of the K) than a guy making less than max. We hit the same issue with the MLE. Teams just haven’t been very good at figuring out where players fit around those artificial lines.
++++++++++++++++++++1
Thanks for letting people know this. I guess our fans would rather do what every other team does when they have a lot of cap space with no one to spend it on… over sign mediocre players.
Suns let Amare walk to sign Jared Dudley for 21.25 million, Josh Childress for 30 million, Channing Frye for 30 million and Hakim Warrick for 18 million.
Let’s be clear, these players are playing with one of best point guards in the history of the sport and all they have to show for it is a 36-36 record. They are too good to go into the lottery and get another star, now they don’t have any flexibility either.
You want more examples? Go to hoopshype.com’s salaries section and see what the Nets and Clippers did also. Atlanta made the right move in signing Joe Johnson. He knew he could get the max from NY, Clippers or the Nets so the Hawks had to pay. It’s call supply and demand. His worth was determined by the those other teams.
by Kinnis Gosha on Mar 29, 2011 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
No, it was the wrong move.
His worth wasn’t determined by any other team being willing to spend max on him. What other teams could spend on JJ wasn’t as much as Atlanta could pay for him, so that’s not a valid point imo. Atlanta was the only team that could give him an extra year and for more money per year, and they overpaid for him by at least $10-15mil compared to what every other team could have paid. They basically were bidding against theirselves.
As for what determined his worth, I believe that was determined by a fear that the team’s success was explicitly tied to having JJ. It was very shortsighted and reactionary. But hey, that’s our lovely ASG in a nutshell for ya.
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
Look - no one can predict the future
When JJ was signed, I did not want him signed to as long a contract as occurred. But I definitely wanted him signed. How do you replace 20 points, and five assists a game? Easy answer you don’t. ASG felt they had to do that, but I wish it was for couple year less, but it would have been hard to keep JJ at 4 years 15M per year or ever 5 years at that. A difficult decision, no matter how you look at it.
So now, the people that were against JJ signing, have a field day. Because obviously if he is going to score 14 points a game and do 5-14 shooting per night, there is no way he can be defended by any logical argument. We need to hope that he turns it around.
Will Hawks be better off with a healthy JJ? I am positive they will. At this point, I would have let him take Orlando and Cs game off, because we need him. Though Sixers are behind by only 4 games and have a easier schedule and are playing great, and there is a huge difference between playing Orlando, and Heat at this point. So, a tough decision….
On another note, I agree Kris, you are doing fantastic facilitating this very touchy subject
I agree
Kind of hard to defend this now given the results. I still believe this team is better with Joe Johnson than without. Of course that is contingent on JJrerurning back to earlier form.
@Kris_Willis
I also have to feel
That he is healthy or he wouldn’t be suiting up tomorrow. I am going to be disappointed if this is something that lingers the rest of the season.
@Kris_Willis
Agree 100%. Health I think (and hope) are the reasons for
His drop off. But still the contract for the 1st 3 – 4 seasons wasn’t my reason for concern. It was the last 2 – 3. And really I’ve never had a feeling he didn’t give 100% effort anytime this season or at any time with Atlanta
by xavip on Mar 29, 2011 5:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If JJ has a fault it is that he hasn't stepped up and taken charge in that locker room
We are treated with general quotes and reactions after every game because it seems every player in that locker room is afraid to hurt another players feelings. Joe is paid to be the leader of this team and maybe he should have rattled the cage earlier this season instead of trying to lead by example.
If I have a fault with JJ then it is this. I have never felt that he shut it down after the All-Star game. Who in the freaking NBA really cares about the All-Star game? It doesn’t mean anything to today’s players the way it did in the 80’s.
@Kris_Willis
True This
He is paid as a leader, but he is not the leader. The leader is the Lion. JJ is a quiet guy of the team, that happens to play like a star.
In a way, let’s compare him to Durant. Is Durant a leader? I think Durant is a star but not a leader. But that team has a leader named Westbrook. We have a leader named Lion, but he has to come to terms with that
Wow
i applaud you on that comparison, I never really thought that.
Partially functional, half of me is comfortable. the other half is close to the cliff like Mrs Huckstable
If Tyrone Hill and Sam Cassell had a staring contest, who would win?
On an unknown date in the year 2012, Mike Brown and Mike Woodson will come together to discuss offensive strategies.
Yeah I don't think Lion knows he is leading anything
he has the same quote about mental toughness after every defeat
They all say the same things
Which is exactly my point. Maybe they are too close nit and maybe someone needs to call the others out. If you ask me that is exactly what the team is lacking.
@Kris_Willis
I think as Kirk gets more respect with time amongst the playing group
He’ll be the vocal, no-nonsense leader the Hawks so desperately need. It might only occur after a pre-season with the team, but I think he’s got the cojones to take on the role.
I don't get why Dominique was classed solely as a gunner. With guys like Randy Wittman and Scott hastings in your line-up, it was wise that he took the shots.
It'll be hard to know if he is
I do think Kirk talks more on the court than he gets credit for at times, but he’s not a really vocal leader in the sense of being visibly on guys. He was criticized in both Chicago and Washington for not being the rah-rah or outwardly demanding type of leader.
On the other hand, I remember Joakim Noah saying in an interview that Kirk was the guy on the Bulls that used to pull guys aside and tell them they needed to get it under control and they were costing the team (in Jo’s case by getting to emotional about a play). And I’ve seen him barking at guys to get in the right place on the court. I’ve just never seen him get in a guy’s face in a time out or anything.
I feel like JJ plays not near 100% all of the time.
He rushes back from injury all of the time and with elbow I remeber LD saying he didn’t know it was even a problem until it was a problem.
I don't know about that. Besides Kobe
I can’t recall any star player calling out another star player. Like Boston’s Big 3 or Miami’s. And even Winners such as Tim Duncan. Now granted I don’t follow all teams closely but why do people think Westbrook is the Thunders’ leader? I know he’s playing a vocal position but is there an instance the Thunder were playing bad and he made a locker difference? Same thing in Chi. I know Rose is grinding now but is he that locker room guy that the Hawks don’t have?
by xavip on Mar 29, 2011 6:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i also don't know other teams well enough
But when I saw Westbrook hit that 3 pointer against Hawks, and go all Cowboy old west on us with guns blazing out of his holsters, i must say, i loved that. That shows bravado, and Durant is too much of a gentelman to ever do that. Durant is a blue chip and to me quiet leader. Difference though i guess is Westbrook is same age as Durant, but JJ is older than Lion. and clearly we also have smoove, which makes it hard for Lion to lead
I much prefer the JJ reaction to a big shot.
I got it, lets go home.
I agree with you on the health issue
But isn’t that we should have expected as he reaches his 30’s? I’ll refer to all the research and evidence presented before his signing regarding guards in their thirties and declines associated with it. Injuries can easily be included in that decline can they not?
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
Better yes...
but the biggest problem is that many fans don’t realize that once you go down the wrong path in the NBA – it takes courage to reverse course and make bold decisions. So, the fear of the fans and organization to take a step back to go forward is the reason we have Joe Johnson. What’s amazing to me is that Joe Johnson’s BEST years were not worth max money and weren’t going to get us closer to a title, so it was a move lacking a path to a title. That’s why I didn’t want the signing. He could be delivering his best numbers and the Hawks STILL would be missing the things to get them to the 4th seed and would be facing the 1st round exit. So, why not take a step back to go forward…that’s what I think people are missing in letting him go. I don’t care about his offseason or lack of leadership (though that is what I pay my max money for), but an almost 30 year old guy who at his best is STILL not going to take you to the promised land seems faulty without even seeing this season OR worrying about his injuries.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Mar 30, 2011 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions
How do you replace 20 points, and five assists a game? Easy answer you don’t.
You don’t replace it all from one guy. What you do is spread it around. You sign a much cheaper SG who can give you 12-14 ppg of it or you use Marvin or Jamal at SG. You use the money that is saved to strengthen the bench or sign a quality free agent center of point guard. Meanwhile the players that remain on the roster (Marvin, Josh, Al, Teague, etc.) all get a few more touches in the offense and thus score higher. It’s not like the Hawks were going to score 20 PPG less if they didn’t resign Joe.
JJ's departure wasn't going to give you much financial relief this season
Long term yes but short term no
@Kris_Willis
Really? I disagree
$16mil/yr is enough to get you two $8mil/yr players. I/m not going to go through the excercise of digging up all the players named again because this is all a rehash of everything we’ve talked about before the signing, but there were numerous players listed in that pay range that combined with increased usage from Horford, Teague, Williams, etc, could have easily replaced everything JJ brings to the table in the stat sheet and more. Would all of that replaced his demanding a double team or the ease at which he seems to score at times? Probably not, but I disagree with the notion that JJ’s contract isn’t a hindrance right now.
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
No, let me clarify
We could afford to sign Johnson to whatever contract because we held his bird rights. If he walks then we wouldn’t have held the bird rights of any player that we sign and would have been over the cap. They would have had to have done a sign and trade.
@Kris_Willis
by Kris Willis on Mar 30, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
But that's not entirely true
Having a players Bird Rights doesn’t affect what the cap is, it simply allows the team to go over the cap to sign a player. So, in this example this year, we are paying JJ a little over $16mil and we are not yet over the luxury tax. If I remember correctly, there’s about a $10mil difference between the soft cap and the luxury cap. That left us with about $6mil and the MLE, which was valued around $5-6mil. Combined, that allows for some options with regards to signing other players.
You’re right that it would have been more difficult to maneuver through, but it surely wasn’t an all-or-nothing situation. Maybe the middle-groud solution would have been to not offer the absolute max to JJ, hope he signs for slightly over more than whatever anyone else could offer, and use the remaining available + the MLE to acquire additional bench depth.
Of course, all this is really moot at this point, so bleh.
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
By the way I never said it wasn't a hindrance right now
@Kris_Willis
by Kris Willis on Mar 30, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
You're right
Sorry, reading comprehension failure on my part. That’s what I get for skimming in an atempt to catch up. My blog suffers from a lack of attention as well.
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
If that's the case....
You don’t give anyone a max contract. You take the players that give you the best value. Good business sense. Poor basketball sense.
by Kinnis Gosha on Mar 29, 2011 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Moneyball in basketball
There’s nothing wrong with that to an extent, but I don’t think it’s a matter of simply never giving a max contract, rather that you don’t give a max contract out to an undeserving player, especially one exiting the prime of their career and beginning their decline. Just as you can’t not give out a max deal ever, you can’t give out a max deal simply because a player is perceived to be required for success.
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
Right. You give Lebron or Kobe a max deal. Joe Johnson, not so much especially when you’ve already seen what he can do surrounded by the same supporting cast: fail to a win a second round game. There was no reason to believe Joe would magically improve once given a max deal and take the same Hawks team farther into the playoffs. Rather there was every reason to believe he would start declining (maybe even rapidly based on how similar players have gone), and that’s in fact what has happened.
Well actually Kobe is sort of at the same point in his career as Joe (obviously Kobe has been a far superior player), so maybe you don’t give him a max deal either. Lebron, Rose, or Durant, let’s say.
you give kobe max
because his leadership and his star power and his clutchness make him worth it whether he’s providing the numbers. Since Joe does none of that, he can’t get the max and kobe can.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Mar 30, 2011 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Kobe's been in this league 6 years longer than Joe
And has logged many playoff minutes and have been on olympic teams. The comparsion between “declines” is way off base considering age instead of actual games played
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
I hear ya
but let’s just not compare Kobe and Joe anymore. The chasm is too deep between the two players to be fair about this. Let’s use Rudy Gay or someone like that…
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Mar 30, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
one has twice had dominant big men and Phil Jackson to lead him to the promised land and had said coach call him uncoachable. The other has never been passed the third round and was the center of a rebuilding, bickering franchise that only has one other all-star on board
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
true
but again – Kobe is a supremely more talented player than Joe. I agree with all of that about Kobe, but he and Joe are not even on the same planet in terms of talent.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Mar 30, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Sometime I want Hawks fans to think
Where we be without JJ?
were he not to accept the move that BK made?
Who among us thinks Hawks will still be making their 4th playoff entry in a row?
Who among us thinks we be considered one of the top few teams in the East?
Who among us thinks we be the destination for Jamal Crawford?
Who among us thinks that the work ethic of the team, would be as good as it is. JJ is a tremendous worker and a no nonsense player.
Who among us thinks Hawks be the only team among the Atlanta professional teams to make it to the second round of playoffs two years in a row? Yes that includes Matty Ice Meltdown (I like to lose in first round) Falcons, and the ATL Braves
Who among us thinks Hawks will be looked at as a disappointment, because before that, they were not even relevant.
and finally who among us would choose a destination of a team with no talent, no wins, no future, to come south and join us when we had nothing.
Think about that the next time you want to pick on JJ
Agree with you
plus how many “hawks fans” did you here last year say we could just let jamal start and think that we would be okay
Partially functional, half of me is comfortable. the other half is close to the cliff like Mrs Huckstable
If Tyrone Hill and Sam Cassell had a staring contest, who would win?
On an unknown date in the year 2012, Mike Brown and Mike Woodson will come together to discuss offensive strategies.
Thank you Joe Johnson for the past five or so years it has been great
I think a majority of Hawks fans are going to agree with you. JJ was important to the franchise he was a key component to this team. He has created some brilliant moments for the Hawks and he was paid and recognized for his effort.
However all of that ends when you sign a new contract, especially for that much money. The past, no longer matters. It is all about where you are going to take us. And that question had already been answered.
I will answer those questions for you
I am not sure about you, but going into the playoffs knowing you won’t make it out of the second round will always we worse than being in the lottery. I would rather have 13 wins without J.J. and be looking at Harrison Barnes or Kyrie Irving then having JJ put up 15 points a game and being swept by the Magic.
We traded for Jamal so he had no choice and if you think he was going to walk away from 11 million, he wasn’t.
JJ has a tremendous work ethic even though I have never seen him work out I have been told this countless times so I believe it. Now does the team have a high work ethic? Is the rest of the team mentally strong are they no nonsense? Nope, because for all of those great qualities how many people in that locker room are taking their cues from JJ? He isn’t a leader, but that is how he is being paid.
Whose future looks better the Braves the Falcons or the Hawks? How long did it take the Falcons to return to prominence considering they lost the best player in the NFL and their head coach in the span of two seasons?
I was watching the Hawks when they had 13 wins. I was happy and optimistic about the future and that same feeling remained until Joe Johnson was signed this off season.
You don’t spend that money on someone who you don’t think could be a first ballot hall of famer period. You don’t even consider it especially when you have a core whose age is under 25. When the guy signed has completely disappeared in the playoffs, when your fan base could care less about him, when an offense designed to maximize his strengths was rendered useless against good defense. When you are installing an offense where he doesn’t need to score 30 or twenty for that matter?
This isn’t Nike. You don’t do it. You run in the opposite directions and you position yourself for the future. You make yourself attractive to sale if that is what you are thinking.
Signing him to this contract around this current team was moronic hindsight not included.
And despite all of this I am a fan of Joe Johnson, we practically have the same name and when I am playing pickup I don’t say Kobe when I hit shots from 35 feet I say JJJJooe Johnson B%#$hes.
Case in point:
Shelden Williams.
I don't get why Dominique was classed solely as a gunner. With guys like Randy Wittman and Scott hastings in your line-up, it was wise that he took the shots.
Can't argue that
We are a perfect example of a team who failed to use it properly, but there are plenty of teams who have.
And for owners financially strapped do you pay a 100 and however so million for a player not generating revenue and not interested in endorsements or do you take a chance on a player whose salary you can guarantee won’t break the bank for four years.
jj will sing for ya. Will this cover 100 million?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yCC2x_CET0&feature=related
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
So making the playoffs is now all we care about? I’d like to see the Hawks win a championship or at least seriously compete for one. With all the recent examples of teams changing their rosters and becoming great over night, it doesn’t seem impossible Atlanta could do it too. Re-signing Joe Johnson to a max deal didn’t help the Hawks accomplish that.
by redwards95 on Mar 30, 2011 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd. This is what's dividing Hawks' fans right now.
There’s a group who are content with “things not being as bad as they once were” and a group who will not be content until this team “becomes a contender.”
Agree 10000000%
All my dissenters are in the things aren’t as bad as they once were and halfway optimistic group and I’m in the – we’re in the worst third of basketball teams (the too good to get lottery picks, but too bad to even contend). You want to be CONTENDING, SUCKING, and then in the MIDDLE in the NBA. And we’re in the bottom group and our fans barely realize it.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Mar 30, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Confused
So, now, we’re getting to my point above – there’s an emotional attachment that you have to JJ – I love that JJ came here, don’t love that he’s still here..not because I hate him, but because he’s not worth max money and we need that money to get better. So, over time – like all athletes, he gotta kick rocks when his value isn’t what it was. It’s kinda like fantasy football. I win titles because I got no heart when it comes to that stuff. You can have heart if someone has delivered a title for you, but nothing less than that gets burn with me. I remember when I had LaDainian Tomlinson at his height and when he fell off – I cut him. No attachment to the titles he brought me. Obviously, this isn’t fantasy, but it is the issue I think that you guys miss when talking about Joe Johnson. I think we give him too much emotion because of where we were. I like him, but I don’t love him and at his price – he’s hamstringing our ability to win a title, so to me – he’s got to go. No other way to say it…We can give him a parade and do it gracefully, but it must be done. No ifs, buts, or ands about it…
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Mar 30, 2011 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Str8Talk c'mon, it's not JJ that is hamstringing the Hawks ability
It’s management and our present and past GM’s. A few of the roster moves went right for Atlanta since JJ signed w/ Atl initially. But ALOT has gone wrong. That is where the problem begins at. True JJ is having a bad season but that will happen to all players. And I think JJ is still capable of having a good season like last yr. And I’m not giving up on him this season. And I think at this point we could trade Smoove and get the right pieces in place to improve the future.
by xavip on Mar 30, 2011 10:50 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ok
Go to my blog or my postings here and read the disclaimer and you’ll see that I agree with your assessment. I’m not saying that JJ is THE problem – I am saying that his contract and his output based on that contract require a LOT more pieces that we can’t acquire. Sure, the mgmt sucks so much that they may not get the right pieces anyway, but there’s a difference between we picked the wrong guy and we can’t get any guy. Right now, we can’t get anyone else after we screw it up with guys like Powell, Collins, Thomas, etc. So, yes – mgmt sucks first, but giving him the contract was part of the problem. JJ is not in a vacuum the problem, but overpaying him is a problem for the franchise.
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Mar 30, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I just wish Joe would stop being a ball-stop
I’m not brilliant enough to know if signing Joe was the right thing or the wrong thing, but it looks to me like the Hawks do well when the ball moves and people move without the ball. When Joe has the ball, it stops moving, and when it stops moving, the people stop moving too. It’s a vicious cycle. Joe could break it by passing when the double team comes, but he just keeps dribbling…
I dont know whether to laugh or cry,
bibby scored 23
Partially functional, half of me is comfortable. the other half is close to the cliff like Mrs Huckstable
If Tyrone Hill and Sam Cassell had a staring contest, who would win?
On an unknown date in the year 2012, Mike Brown and Mike Woodson will come together to discuss offensive strategies.
"laughing uncontrollably"
Partially functional, half of me is comfortable. the other half is close to the cliff like Mrs Huckstable
If Tyrone Hill and Sam Cassell had a staring contest, who would win?
On an unknown date in the year 2012, Mike Brown and Mike Woodson will come together to discuss offensive strategies.
He was really hot from 3
It happens with a lot of players in the occasional game. He was also part of allowing Cleveland to shoot 55.6% last night. ;)
He'll give them that game once or twice a season.
BD abused him on several occasions. He seems to be out of shape too.
Can't eat sushi in Utah, brother.....Landlocked
But remember,
the Heat index writer assured us that he can play defense
Partially functional, half of me is comfortable. the other half is close to the cliff like Mrs Huckstable
If Tyrone Hill and Sam Cassell had a staring contest, who would win?
On an unknown date in the year 2012, Mike Brown and Mike Woodson will come together to discuss offensive strategies.
NOOOOOO!
With 8 games to go we are 5 back of Orlando and 4 ahead of Philly. It is an extreme long shot that our playoff position will change. There is no rational reason to rush Joe back into action. Let the thumb heal and make sure he’s ready and whole for the playoffs. Got to know when to make your move.
So why didn't the team make moves before JJ's contract?
JJ’s contract is not the problem. With the exception of the Spurs and Bulls, every top tier team has gone over the luxury tax line, so hamstringing the team from winning a championship is at best naive. The problem is managements lack of vision or poor vision. If management traded for Hinrich and thought that that would be a good move for a long playoff push, why not trade for Daron Williams? Why not get involved in some blockbuster trades? Put the onus on the real players at hand and not bloated opinions about players worth.
IMO JJ has been the scapegoat over the past couple of seasons and its never anybody else on the team.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
no scapegoat here
I don’t blame JJ for signing that paper. Now, for that paper, you have to do more than he does for this team. Again, that’s ASG’s fault for paying him, but that doesn’t mean that JJ escapes blame. That said, from the top down – this isn’t a good organization. They just have enough talent to not get exposed by less talented teams. Simple as that…
Hawk Str8Talk
by Hawk Str8Talk on Mar 30, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions

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