Atlanta Hawks: Wilkins Move Was About Keeping Options Open
by Kris Willis on Jan 6, 2011 10:00 AM EST
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PrintThe Hawks request for waivers on Forward Damien Wilkins should come as no surprise to those that follow the NBA. If there is anything strange about the move it is that it happened before the Utah game and not after. The deadline before Wilkins contract would have become fully guaranteed for the remainder of the season is still five days away. What follows this move will be interesting to watch especially given the health concerns that have surrounded the team this season.
More after the jump
Atlanta could elect to bring Wilkins back on a ten day contract as soon as that becomes an option on Monday. This also could hinge on the health of Marvin Williams as he is expected to rejoin the team back in Atlanta for Saturday's game against the Pacers. If he is healthy then Damien might not be necessary. Wilkins had seemingly fallen out of the rotation before Marvin was injured against Golden State. He has saw sporadic playing time since. With the likelihood that the big lineup is here for the long haul, then the minutes at small forward are going to be even more limited.
Bret LaGree points out that the team could be looking to bring in some other players for looks on ten day contracts. The Hawks this season have utilized the D-League for the first real time in the franchise's history. We know that Hawks GM Rick Sund spent some time in Utah with the Flash when Sy was first assigned there. While there doesn't appear to be a current Flash player that mike make sense for the Hawks to give a call up to, another player in the D-League might.
Probably the most unpopular option would be that the Hawks don't fill the roster spot. If not for an injury to Joe Johnson I think it was highly unlikely that Damien Wilkins would have been signed in the first place. While I would love to add a deserving D-League player (Courtney Sims? or someone like him) is there really a need to acquiring someone else when Jeff Teague and Jordan Crawford aren't regulars in the rotation? It is highly probable that anyone the Hawks bring in will spend most of their time here in a suit, or at the end of the bench.
I was excited as anyone about the signing of Damien Wilkins when it happened. The writing was on the wall though when he started racking up DNP's. This move was made to keep roster options open. While I don't have an answer for the timing of the move it shouldn't come as that big of a surprise.
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what do we need?
looking at the depth chart…
we are lack of… (there are few things we don`t need though)
1. Pass first type of PG
2. Back Court Defence
3. Vocal Leader
4. Big guy who can jump more than Zaza
I can`t come up with anymore, but there should be more.
1 and 2 can be solved by one player.
3 is almost unsolvable by a new guy.
4 can be solved by Courtney Sims? (Never saw his game)
When we are healthy we have pretty good depth in my opinion.
I'm of the opinion that they'll actually make a move this trading deadline...
…so this gives them an extra roster spot.
The Hawks make trades about every 18 months, so it’s time again.
To add:
These are the Hawks non-draft day trade acquisitions since getting Joe in the infamous S&T in August of 2005:
Feb 2007 – Anthony Johnson
Feb 2008 – Mike Bibby (trading AJ out, of course)
June 2009 – Jamal Crawford
So, it’s about time for a trade acquisition. Logic dictates the Hawks will trade out either Jamal Crawford or Mike Bibby. LOL.
I actually saw on a Raptors blog that there was a rumored Bibby deal for Calderon
Personally I am not buying it.
@KrisPTHoops
There was rumored interest in Calderon before, but...
…I don’t think he’s enough of an upgrade for Sung to mess with “chemistry.”
There was also a rumor of a trade offer for Nash on Hawksquawk, fwiw. It’ll likely be another month before a move is made, if one is made at all.
I still think it is likely that Jamal is the one moved however
if he is playing good and the team is performing, there is a good chance that the Hawks will stand pat.
Not sure what Nash would cost us but I would love to see him in an Atlanta uniform. I am not sure that he will be moved though.
@KrisPTHoops
I can’t decide whether I badly want the Hawks to get Nash or whether he isn’t the answer. He’s not exactly known for his defense which is the main reason you would want to replace Bibby. And the Hawks don’t really use a PG to distribute like Nash does. But Nash driving and dishing to Josh, Al, Marvin, and Joe could be a thing of beauty.
I think Nash's positives clearly outweigh his negatives
He is a good teammate, makes players better, and will sell tickets. If the Hawks were to trade for him then it is a very large news item. Just depends on the price in my opinion.
@KrisPTHoops
Nash for Jamal and Teague works according to ESPN’s trade machine. Plus it estimates this would increase the Hawks’ wins by 10 (!).
What about Bibby and JC1?
Why trade for Nash and keep Bibby over Teague? Teague is mush less expensive and would learn more from Nash than from Bibby and he would still represent the potential future, whereas Bibby does not.
Nash is in every way possible better than Bibby and if the opportunity exists to bring him to Atlanta without giving up Horf or Smoove, then I’m all for it. I don’t think it would happen because that would just be too much awesome for the ASg to handle, but a man can dream!
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
Because why would Phoenix want Bibby? A package for Jamal’s expiring contract plus a young PG is at least somewhat plausible.
Suns
I can see them moving Childress and Warrick before Nash. Neither of those guys are getting any PT in Phoenix after they dropped a bunch of money on them.
I really don't think Nash gets moved unless.....
he comes out and specifically requests it.
@KrisPTHoops
If he does want out
We could offer a deal of Jamal Crawford, Mo Evans, and 2011 1st and 2013 1st for Nash and Grant Hill and give those vets a shot at a title run. Bibby could be included for a Warrick or Frye if they wanted, but isn’t really necessary. While Bibby works in a trade checker instead of Mo Evans it would push the Suns into the Luxury Tax and I don’t think they’d do that. The move would save 10M+ of next years cap and pick up 2 first rounders for them. You could throw in Teague if needed without tax implications if needed to sweeten the deal.
The real advantage of this deal over the Calderon rumor is that Nash would sell tickets to casual fans. A year and a half of him getting the ball to Al and Josh in perfect position might help establish them with the media and casual fans as the young studs they are which should help sustain ticket sales in the post Nash-era.
BTW, you could work a similar deal around Bibby and Marvin and the 2 1sts, but I doubt Phoenix would want to take on Marvin’s salary even though his was once a high 1st rounder.
well
The initial Crawford/Evans/2 picks deal would probably edge us into luxury tax by just $170K. Adding Teague to the deal would alleviate that, but we could probably find another way around it in a different trade instead (something like Etan Thomas and cash to Sacramento for a conditional pick (nothing)). We just give them more cash than it takes to pay the rest of Thomas’s salary as they have cap room and pocket the extra. Those cap deals happen every year in the league.
Or
We could look at the viability of another trade possibly getting Marvin off the books for an expiring or something involving Bibby, which could free up enough cash to keep Teague without luxury tax. The bottom line is that the tax shouldn’t scare us off of a Phoenix deal because their are ways to get back under as long as we don’t get too compromised.
Good stuff here
Of course this is all hypothetical and I haven’t seen anything yet that makes me think the Suns will trade Nash.
@KrisPTHoops
Evil Dallas huh?...
I’ll repeat my old trade idea centered around Joe to the Mavs, and Caron Butler plus other contracts coming the Hawks way to free up cap space in the summer.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Which would make them need another wing...
and willing to take on Joe’s contract, if we were willing to dump it.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Caron Butler
Is out for the season. If we wanted to free up cap space and get rid of JJ, we prob wouldn’t have signed him to 120 mil in the summer
Except realizing too late that it's too much money for too little player
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
There is absolutely ZERO chance that the Hawks Trade Joe Johnson
This season or in the offseason. End of Story
@KrisPTHoops
Not to mention how stupid it would be
to trade him to Dallas right now for a player that is out for the season. Last time I checked the Hawks are a playoff team. I am sure fans would love to hear about that salary dump. Do you think season tickets sales would go up?
@KrisPTHoops
This year's tickets are already sold...
next year depends on what they’d do with the freed up money in the off season. And yes, they go from playoff but no championship to no playoffs and no championship. Either way, there’s no title, my way, there’s a chance for one in the next few years that isn’t there now.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
You don't tank on a season this early
Championship or not. If Rick Sund or any GM proposed that trade at this point in the season they would be fired by the end of the day.
It makes no sense whatsoever
@KrisPTHoops
Now that I can agree with
You definitely don’t tank on a season, but that also doesn’t mean that trading JJ is a sure fire way to knock us out of the playoffs. The East is still going to let a middling 40-win team into the playoffs so there is a chance that a JJ move could still net us enough talent to keep us in the playoffs for those extra money games and give us a better chance at making a title push in the future.
Now, what it would take to get there is definitely up for discussion and frankly, I don’t think I have a good idea for, but we can still talk about it.
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
There's always a chance
People said the same thing about Nique. People said it about Jet. You surely aren’t the end all of the discussion.
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
Can you imagine
what the people that say the Hawks are run on the cheap right now would say if we just simply dumped Johnson for a player that is injured and not playing anymore this season? Philips Arena would be empty, completely empty.
@KrisPTHoops
Let's move this down
Can’t tell who is replying to who anymore
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
Evil Dallas explained
Mi llamo es Dallas. However, Dallas is a hard id to get on the Internet, so in the cyber world, I am Evildallas. Nothing to do with the Mavs.
As for the dumping of Joe contract idea. I toyed with that as well, but it only would even possibly occur if the wheels completely come of the Hawks. We’re talking about several games under .500 prior to the trade deadline and chemistry completely falling apart. Since there are 20 games left till the trade deadline, the Hawks would have to go 3-17 to really be in that position. Not going to happen. If we had deep pocketed ownership we wouldn’t even be sweating Joe’s deal, so I prefer to focus on ways to improve the product on the floor and getting butts in the seats without blowing up the squad.
Evil Dallas huh?...
I’ll repeat my old trade idea centered around Joe to the Mavs, and Caron Butler plus other contracts coming the Hawks way to free up cap space in the summer.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Who cares what they want?
Give him to them anyways.
No, I get it, but what’s good for us is good for us.
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
No, it's not...
not for the face of their franchise unless they’re wanting to blow it up for a Lebron or other #1 lock (Irving?).
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Just dream about...
Smoove having a Marion like explosion with Nash at PG, all sorts of oops and open 3s that actually fall. But the ooops and the alleys, oh they’ll be magical.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Wouldn't surprise me if nothing happens.
We should call them the Atlanta “Standpats.”
There are some true a-holes on that list that I love seeing flop.
Francis, Ricky Davis, Antoine Walker, Chism, Darius Miles.
That is a fantastic “Oh THAT guy!” list.
I'm on the Twitter: twitter.com/edgrohl
Indeed
Ricky Davis was so awesome in his prime. Cavs thought he couldn’t coexist with Lebron so off he went. It turned out he couldn’t coexist with anyone. I remember the game against Utah when he needed one rebound for a triple double so he took and missed a layup on his own basket. He didn’t get a triple double, but I think he did get a tech
poor flip murray
the only person i actually kinda feel sorry for
Will gladly sell my soul for a championship..........
Moving JJ/Butler/etc continued....
I agree that the JJ for Butler and parts move proposed by Mr. Sanchez isn’t really viable imo because of Butler’s injury. However, there are always a thousand other options that could be explored involving moving JJ. No one can explicitly state that there is zero chance to move him.
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
There is zero chance this season in my opinion barring a monumental collapse that I can't fathom
There is even less of a chance of moving him for a player that is injured unless the Hawks are out of playoff contention which is going to take a big time losing streak.
@KrisPTHoops
+1
I don’t understand why a trade JJ for Butler and even Beaubois is even being entertained. The salaries do not match up and Butler will be damaged goods for the remainder of his career due to his recent ACL tear. This would be a disaster.
by Anonymous HawksGuy on Jan 7, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
Trading JJ doesn't have to be tied to the Hawks playoff contention
There very well may be an option that moves Jj without taking us out of playoff contention. This isn’t the West where 45+ win teams don’t make the playoffs, this is the East where 35-win teams do make the playoffs. We have already shown that this team can succeed without JJ (small sample size noted) so tying one to the other is short-sighted imo. JJ is not the end-all, be-all to the Hawks and anyone who still makes that argument isn’t looking at the bigger picture honestly, if at all.
Again, I haven’t attempted at trying to find that solution yet, but unlike some, I’d be a fool to sit here and say that there is absolutely no possible solution before actually looking at all avenues.
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
But even though we can deal JJ and still be a playoff team...
I think Kris is right in saying it’s not happening. From a realistic perspective, we’ll see Joe wearing Hawks across his chest until at least 2013, if not much longer.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Maybe
I know, but it’s so damned depressing to constantly be reminded of the fact that the ASG is who runs this organization. JJ represents that constant reminder. I’m just trying to hold out hope that they are slowly recognizing that they made a horrible mistake with that contract negotiation and would maybe be willing to try to make up for it.
Don’t flip on me know Sanchez, Kris is doing a good enough job of making me cry. Plus, none of that means we can’t still discuss it and make our futile attempts at being GM.
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
What if it's Butler AND Beaubois?
I wouldn’t consider Beaubois “parts” if he’s capable of stepping up as a starting caliber PG. It’s not something you do now, but say we struggle badly over the next two months (not out of playoffs in all likelihood, but enough to convince Sund this isn’t a championship core), and Dallas keeps it’s neck above water and in the playoff chase. At that point, especially if Beaubois comes back and looks like a solid future piece, I think it could make a ton of sense. It’s not gonna happen, because the FO is pot committed with Joe to use a poker term, and showed that last summer. But to me, it makes a lot of sense in getting the money off the books, and you can go into next year with a battle between Teague and Beaubois to take over PG from Bibby, Crawford 2 working in to a larger role at the 2, Marvin, Smooth and Horford up front, and a good bit of cap space to target young pieces to complement Smooth and Horford at the 2, 3, and 5, as well as whatever you can get in the draft (possible lottery if we collapse, or more likely around 15-18).
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
"say we struggle over the next two months"
this statement coming off arguably the best game they have played the whole season.
@KrisPTHoops
Just cause we're playing great now doesn't mean it continues...
as we’ve seen them come off several hot streaks and turn very cold quick over the last couple years. That was why I put that line in there though, because the current level of play would encourage Sund that this might develop into a championship core, and we’d need to fall off considerably to get to a point where he’d blow this up. As said, it ain’t happening, because this winter proved we’re committed long term to Joe in this core unit. The last 10 games or so make that seem like it might progress to the point we all want to get to, but teams that are hot in January don’t automatically stay hot in February, March, and beyond.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Agreed
Just look at our before and after Feb records over the past couple seasons and you’ll find this to be true. Granted, those were Woodson teams completely revolving around isolation so maybe Drew’s team will be different.
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
Have you wondered why JC2 was drafted and Jamal is not extended???
Because in most probability, JC2 is our future backup SG and Jamal is gone. That is the logical reason why a team that is loaded in the SG position, goes and drafts a shooting guard.
Now as for arguments relative to this season, you have to ask do we trade Jamal or do we play the year out. As good as Jamal has played the last few games, history is against him. He is very streaky with incredible offensive skills, and no defense. So Hawks should get something for him, or Jamal is moving on regardless. Need to trade Jamal for Camby and Miller. Throw Teague in there if you must
Throwing trades out there is fun, but you have to be real based on current events. They signed JJ to long term contract, they signed his backup, and the odd man out is Jamal with no contract.
Sorry
Parts might not have been the best term used to describe the rest of the trade, but I used it because most fans are going to look at that and see JJ for Butler and a bunch of filler to make the numbers work. That immediately looks bad because of the injury to Butler, and if Beaubois has been recently injured I’m not sure how that will make it look beter. You and I may look at that and see what it does to set up our future for having a better chance at a title, but most won’t see it that way and just about everytime an injured player gets traded it ends up being a bad deal to the casual observer. That might affect the bottom line more than the ASG is willing to accept.
I fully agree that moving JJ is our best option at freeing up space in the future. Furthermore, I believe that we can do that without drastically killing our chances of being a playoff team if the right deal can be struck. IMO, these players are available to move: JJ, JC1, Marvin, Evans, Thomas, Bibby, and Collins. Zaza isn’t a lock, but if I had a choice I’d rather keep him around than either of Collins or Thomas. Teague and JC2 shouldn’t be moved because they represent the most cost effective way of improving and if you move them, you really aren’t helping your space situation much. Obviously I think Horford and Smith are non-negotiable assets and we should do what we can to build around them. They both represent our future, our best investments contractually and in actuality, and I think most would agree that they should be the foundation for this team to be built on.
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
Great Discussion Guys
This in my opinion is what Peachtree Hoops is all about. You guys make some valuable points and I want to state my stance on one thing here.
Jesse28 – sure it is completely possible that Joe Johnson could be moved to another team. The framework is there but I see about 99.9% chance that it is not going to happen.
Work is taking me out of the discussion for a while but I will check back in later. Funny how we went from talking a hypothetical trade for Steve Nash to a hypothetical trade of Joe Johnson.
@KrisPTHoops
Because to me...
both are as likely hypotheticals. The Suns would take a bigger hit in ticket sales, merchandize, pr, etc, by moving Nash than we would JJ.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
There are two differences
JJ is at heights of his career, right at the time Hawks should be peaking. He should have some solid years ahead of him. Nash is at the tail end of his career when Suns are on the way down.
Suns already traded one part of their dual identity (Stoudemire) to Knicks. Trading Nash is not out of the question. Hawks have not traded anything.
Stoudemire was dealt because he was a FA and leaving anyway
not the same thing as Nash, who’s been their centerpiece and signature star pretty much since being obtained from Dallas. And Joe, like Nash, is entering the tail end of his career, although Nash is considerably further along in that regression. But then, Joe’s peak was/is nowhere close to Nash’s peak.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
My trade idea was contingent on the Suns decided to trade Nash.
For that to happen two things must occur. 1) Nash has to ask to be traded (he hasn’t done this yet, but he has publicly voiced his frustration for how things are going this year). 2) Suns have to decide that the return for Nash gives them a league up on rebuilding.
The deal I suggest gives them 2 #1 picks for a 37 year old (in 1 month) PG. It can tweaked to be even more attractive for them:
Nash, Hill, and Frye
for
Jamal, Bibby, and Evans, 2011 1st, 2013 1st, and right to swap 2014 1st rounders.
I might even be willing to add the magical word of “unprotected” to that 2013 pick. The reason this offer is more attractive (than the 1st) is that it gets them out of the extension they signed on Frye who doesn’t seem to fit that well in rebuilding. In the long term Frye could cause us cap issues, but in the short term it actually keeps us under the tax threshold. The move also gives them hope that if the Hawks drop off after Nash retires that they can swap picks and get another player upgrade as well as the 2 building blocks they already get from the deal.
BTW, if Phoenix doesn’t trade Nash, then I am all over the concept of dealing with Toronto for Calderon. I love how Bibby is playing now, but I have my doubts that he can keep it up all year let alone next year. Calderon doesn’t resonate with fans like Nash, so the deal wouldn’t involve any picks, but it would improve our offense.
Bibby and Evans for Calderon (goes into Tax) or Bibby and Zaza for Calderon and Dorsey (no luxury tax).
It’s not as sexy but it would likely help us a bit.
The point was Suns are already a different team
You are correct Stoudemire was not traded, but in effect the team was broken apart. And I doubt Nash wants to finish his career in rebuilding mode. And Suns would eventually accept some trade for him. IF not this year, surely next year.
You can not be serious saying Joe is in the tail end of his career. He was highly sought after this past off-season for 5 year deals. And his style of play does not really put a lot of wear and tear on him. I believe his injury has caused his sub-per performances this year, but he seems to be getting better with his elbow.
I can be serious...
there are several players similar to Joe whose career took a sharp downturn around this age, and were bench players at best in their early 30s.
http://sportsandgrits.blogspot.com/
Chiming in
Joe is still in his prime, but at the end of it. The first half of his contract isn’t bad, but by year 4 the smart money is on him not being anywhere near a $20M man. It’s also not that several players at that position drop off around this age, it’s an overwhelming percentage of them. But what do I know I thought Ray Allen was on empty and look how he turned it on last post season.
Dream Destroyer
GAWD!
Haha!
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
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