Joe Johnson to Chicago in Sign/Trade is Ric Bucher/Sam Smith Opinion (UPDATED)
We've resisted the rumors that Sam Smith put out a week ago (H/T Blog-A-Bull) that theorized a Joe Johnson deal to Chicago for Kirk Hinrich, Taj Gibson, and draft picks. The notion was total speculation and not based in sources in the Bulls front office.
Yesterday we heard Ric Bucher once again tell the ESPN Radio world that he thought Johnson was a best bet to go to....the Bulls in a SNT (sign and trade) scenario. Bucher made no mention of potential players from Chicago in yesterday's discussion, but his confidence in his opinion gives rise to the 2 questions:
Do Hawks fans want to trade Joe Johnson?
What would the Hawks want from Chicago in a SNT for Joe?
UPDATE: We've updated the story to include some insight from Matt over at Blog-A-Bull regarding the opinion of Joe going to the Bulls and what cost is likely and acceptable to the team/fans. (thank you, Matt!)
First question answered: I believe that, while most folks, like myself, have a deep appreciation for Joe's work as a Hawk, if his contract goes beyond the scope of a three season deal, then it's probably best to get the best possible deal instead either Joe leaving for nothing or saddling the franchise to a deal that would come back to haunt the team beyond the next season or two.
We covered off on the subject during the season, and Bret @ Hoopinion reinforced it---Joe is likely to decline significantly way sooner than his next contract is ready to expire. A couple of months back, Bronn showed that the decline might have already begun.
Again, it's not a matter of lack of respect for Joe or a belief that he could still help this team next season---but it's based in the reality that the Hawks can't eat money the way the Dallas Mavericks or New York Knicks can do---and Joe's contract is likely to extend beyond his production matching his compensation.
So that brings us to Question #2---what would we want in a SNT for Joe?
It's my belief the Hawks need to address their point guard situation first and foremost. But a team trading for Johnson isn't about to deal a top tier point guard because they are likely acquiring Joe to be a final piece to drive them further ahead next season, not a swap of building blocks.
So that brings us to Chicago. While we would love to have Joakim Noah despite all the potential Josh Smith consequences that would result, but I think that most Bulls fans believe the core starts with Derrick Rose and concludes with Noah. So that's a no. As Smith indicated, they could indeed part with Hinrich, who qualifies as an expendable asset with Rose on-hand and Johnson starting at the shooting guard position. Hinrich has two years and 17 million left on his deal and Gibson would be cheap labor locked up for a long period of time plus whatever draft pick(s) may be in the mix add to the sweetness of the deal. Assuming the two teams would work through cap issues (if any) this could be the type of deal the Hawks could be facing in a SNT deal for Joe.
UPDATE (from above the jump):
A lot depends on what contract Joe Johnson would be getting. The idea of a sign/trade could imply that he'd be getting more than the Bulls could offer in a straight signing: maximum money and 6 years. That'll probably drive Bulls fans up the wall, and I'm not sure how eager the Bulls themselves would be to that either.
Moving Hinrich (and his contract) in a S/T for Johnson is actually a bonus for the Bulls, especially with JJ being the new 2-guard going forward. Taj Gibson would be the actual 'cost' of such a move, given
that he's already productive and cheap. The Bulls would probably love to move Hinrich anyway after such an acquisition, as there would not be a lot of time for a $9m guard behind Johnson and Rose.
What I think cinches this for the Bulls is if such a move was made and it allowed for them to have enough cap room to land another major FA. That would depend on JJ's first-year contract value coming in. If
that's the case, then I think the Bulls would definitely pay the price of moving Taj if they're landing a big-time PF to replace him simultaneously with acquiring Johnson. If they could hold on to Taj, they would likely be more amiable to sending lesser assets like James Johnson, or a first-rounder (as they ideally won't be drafting too high in a while). They also have the rights to a protected future Bobcats 1st rounder.
Exit Question: Is this kind of deal palatable for Hawks fans (or Bulls fans for that matter)? Would you prefer to let Joe walk and just use some space for flexibility (understanding that we would not be able to sign a FA at the same level as Joe even if he walked)? Or pay Joe and play Joe, hoping we're wrong about his "sure" decline?
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I'd like that deal...
Hinrich could play PG or SG for us, and would be a solid shooter to add to the mix. He’s a good perimeter defender, and if we added a good big wing, like Chill, Ronnie Brewer, Anthony Morrow, Wes Matthews, or even Mike Miller or Damien Wilkins, for the bench, that’d be a damn good start to next year.
You’d have Bibby, Teague, Hinrich, and Crawford in the backcourt. Marvin at the 3, Smoove, Horford, Gibson, and Zaza up front, plus whatever else we could add through cheaper free agents or draft picks.
I wouldn't like this trade.
While he would help our Perimeter D, Hinrich is way to expensive for what we would be getting. Really the best part about not having Joe next year is the cap space we will have after next year. I’m not trying to take Chigago’s trash so they can get better.
Gibson is a good young player, but everything he does well, we already have several players who do it better. And at 24 he isn’t THAT young.
We either need to resign Joe, and see what a new coach can do with this team, or let him go, accept that next year will be a step back, stockpile any assets we can get, and try to make something happen next summer.
Trading for a marginal point guard that costs close to 9 million a year, and a crappy version of Josh Smith doesn’t fit into either of those plans.
If we are going to SAT Joe, we need to either get better now, or make sure we aren’t messing up our cap situation in the process..
taking a step back should have been last year....
a step back this year, would be a step into a deep pot hole. The signing of Marvin, Bibby, and Zaza, while on the surface was necessary, were indeed short term band-aids. Given the amount of free agents this summer than last I wondered why these were priority to Sund.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
shoulda woulda coulda
It’s going to be very difficult to let Joe walk, and also get better. We need to accept that now
I like it for next year
But beyond that? Hinrich’s contract worries me. Plus I’m already used to the Idea of winning 32-45 next year and waiting til 2011.
I guess it depends on how many draft picks we could get. Two first rounds? Then yes. No first rounds? Then I’d pass. Any other deal I would have to think about for a while.
That would conclude that this year's draft is equally as important
as this year’s free agency
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
This years free agency isn't anywhere near as important as next year's free agency.
The draft pick from the bulls would have to be a lottery pick to make it worth it.
Because with Crawford coming off the books we will actually have some cap space to do something at that point
Right now we only have the midlevel exception. And we aren’t going to be seen as a championship contender, so it’s not like we’re going to get a vet to take a pay cut to come here. Next year will be a rebuilding year if we don’t resign Joe.
who's going to come here next year
if Joe leaves? Matter of fact who would come here in place of Joe this year? Sund and the Spirit can’t afford to take a step back, just like a lot of people say they can’t afford Joe and some pieces. What about attendance? Does anybody think we’ll get more fan support with “we have to take a step back”? Please, we can barely get people to a playoff game.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
That's pretty much the argument for resigning Joe
But if you think that replacing him with Hinrich isn’t step back then I don’t know what to tell you.
you know...
i understand the argument everyone has about getting some draft picks and getting some free agents with the flexibility a S&T can do. But what year are we talking about, this year or next year? As far as I know all the free agents this year are healthy and this years draft is as deep as it always been. Capitalizing this year should be the main priority because who knows if the free agents next year will be healthy or who’s coming out next year in the draft.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
On this year...
if we resign Joe, it’s just more of the same, and that doesn’t exactly “capitalize” on things unless you think the second round is the goal. So without Joe, we have to reload for the future and not neccessarily scrap this year, but realize we aren’t winning a title.
I kind of like the idea of say…
PG-Bibby/Teague/Hinrich
SG-Hinrich/Crawford/Chill or Brewer or Morrow or Matthews
SF-Marvin/Chill or Brewer or Morrow or Matthes signing
PF-Smoove/Gibson
C-Horford/Zaza/Alabi or Whiteside or Varnado or Lawal draft pick
That’s a versatile group that would give a new coach a lot of options, especially if one of the 3 starting frontcourt guys took a leap forward. Basically, I’m not as down on Hinrich as others, really like the idea of Gibson as backup PF, and if we got their second #1 this year, we could draft a pair of Cs hoping at least one pans out. It’s really a tough spot to be in, especially considering the piss poor attendance. Status quo isn’t cutting it, but a step back would see a similar step back in revenue, and that wouldn’t help the thought of reinvesting in the future without having the money to put up. It’s a very difficult summer for Sund, and he has to hit the right buttons to make it work.
I could see that
could also see maybe Jj to Knicks for Eddy Curry +Chandler/Gallinari and future first round pick
"Who Wants some pudding pops?, delicious and nutritious!
I like this trade for 2 reasons. Hinrich’s deal is for 2 seasons. If JJ should leave we have a capable SG to pair w/ Teague in the backcourt. That leaves JC to keep his 6th man role until we unload him at the trade deadline. After the 10-11 season would have multiple 1st round picks and Hinrich & Bibby in their last season. Very desirable. Only if Sund knows what to do and Atlanta Spirit at least spends near the luxury tax.
by xavip on May 31, 2010 3:10 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
That's assuming that Teague is the point guard of the future for this team
and also Hinrich hasn’t been good for 5 years now. Don’t fall for this just because he’s a big name.
Not falling....
Now is the perfect time to find out if Teague is the one or not. W/o JJ next season, we have no deep playoff expectations. If Teague doesn’t pan out Bibby/Hinrich can play PG and move Crawford to starter is a possibilty. I don’t see Chicago giving anything else. Besides Chicago could still sign JJ w/o a snt. Paying Hinrich for 1 season is better than settling for a SG the Hawks kinda like for 3 seasons, ie Salmons
by xavip on May 31, 2010 5:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Why do we have to get anything from them?
We’d be better off getting nothing than getting Hinrich. It’s not that I don’t like him, it’s just that his contract is horrible and would use up our flexibility for the next two summers.
So basically your giving up on winning more than 40ish games so you can “get something back”. I’d rather trade Joe for a case of beer than for Hinrich.
He's not a star, maybe not worth the money he's paid...
but he is a good player and a solid rotation piece.
Call me too emotional
But I wanna keep Crawford. And I don’t think his next contract will cost as much.
Worth considering
Think of it shut down Defender he shoots in streaks like almost all of our roster and leaving cap space after JJ leaves i dont think it would be trash if we got them
I don't think so
I don’t like any deal involving Joe Johnson unless he’s a Hawk next year.
It's hard to say what's been most impressive. The seamless jump from AA? The ability to hit for average? The ability to hit for power? The 18 walks in 111 trips to the plate? The flair for the dramatic? When you're trying to isolate the most impressive aspect of Jason Heyward's game, there's a lot to choose from, and it's only been a month and a half.
No
Don’t like Hinrich, Bibby, Crawford, Teague, and I don’t like that deal because there is really only PT for 3 of the 4 and none of them are big guards. Hinrich is okay on defense but I would not want to play a small backcourt. I cringe everytime I think of Jamal Crawford being a starting SG for this team, he has never made it to the playoffs as a starter on any team, there is a reason for that. Deng has too long of a contract, I would not do a deal with the Bulls they don’t have anything we should be wanting other than Noah.
by Truthspitter on May 31, 2010 10:41 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Great thread on a Bulls board
Good discussion from the CHI perspective:
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1015797
by The Human Highlight Blog on Jun 1, 2010 1:02 AM EDT reply actions
The bulls fans seem to like that trade
Because it would allow them to get Johnson AND Lebron, or Bosh or whoever. This trade would give them Joe, and they would still be able to sign a max player.
They aren’t even worried about having enough money to resign Rose and Noah. Because they can afford go way into the luxury tax to resign Rose and Noah. So this would give them a core of Rose, Joe, Noah, and max free agent X to win championships with.
We would be facilitating a dynasty at the expense of tying up OUR capspace with Hinrich who hasn’t been good for like 5 years now.
And in return we get a young (and admitable cheap) player that only duplicates skills that we already have on our roster. And a couple of draft picks that will probably be at the very bottom of the first round.
Now can someone please explain why they think this would be a good trade?
Good trade for Chicago
because they would fill a major hole left by Gordon and Salmons and with a new coach be a favorite in the east.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
I like the scenario.
Nice fresh start for Kirk. Could be a nice step towards team basketball. Even with Josh still here.
yes
Can we just waive Hinrich? Unless he develops some kind of game this summer I don’t see him filling any of the Hawks’ needs
Why not
Joe for Deng + Gibson (and whatever fills the cap space). If they want to go hard at LeBron, this will give them a spot for him, we get a decent scorer back and can either bring Marvin off the bench or trade him for someone like OJ Mayo.
a Teague, Mayo, Deng, Josh, Al starting 5 could be pretty strong defensively and if we go up-tempo could score some points.
You guys could have Deng, but replace Gibson with James Johnson and a pick or two.
We will still need a starting PF.
Bosh 2010!!!!!
not getting better
this team is not better without JJ. And I refuse to believe that this is the closest this core team can get to a championship. RD 1 of the playoffs??? They are better than that. New coach and some bench players. Maybe move Marvin to the bench and find a starting center….and let’s see what happens
Bulls
Outside of Rose and maybe Noah, I don’t see anyone on their roster worth having. The two guys mentioned in the rumor are flaming turds and I may give up on watching the Hawks should they get Hinrich.
One thing to keep in mind is
If a sign and trade actually happens then usually the team losing the free agent is viewed as the loser in the trade. They don’t have a lot of leverage.
If this was to happen...
I’d say we go after Gay after the S&T goes through.
by Anonymous HawksGuy on Jun 1, 2010 1:56 PM EDT reply actions
You MUST include Bibby in this trade.
If Joe must go, Bibby/Joe for Hinrich/Gibson would be about as good as you are going to get.
Bibby would come off the bench for the Bulls, giving them the veteran PG they’ll need to take that next step.
Are we actually trying to get better or worse
with this trade?
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
So so...
If Johnson does leave Atlanta, in return we need a scorer on the wing. I’d like a 3-team trade that included Golden State in which we were able to get Monta Ellis.
I proposed this trade a while back: Joe Johnson to Chicago; Monta Ellis and Anthony Randolph to Atlanta, and Kurt Hinrich and Luol Deng to Golden State.
That's an interesting trade...
resign Chill (or another defensive SG at the mid level), and go….
Ellis/Bibby/Teague
Chill/Jamal/Mo Evans
Marvin/Chill/Mo
Smoove/Randolph
Horf/Zaza/Draft pick

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