Should Josh Smith play C?
by Mr. Sanchez on May 23, 2010 11:39 AM EDT
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PrintCompared to Horford, he's similar size and length, so that can't be a detriment in the discussion. He's also a better leaper than Al, and quicker, so he could be more disruptive and better able to match up with opposing C's. It has the added advantage of putting Smoove in a position where he'd need to be closer to the lane and not drifting around the perimeter, which most everyone thinks would be where he can be most productive. So why not put Josh Smith at C? It allows both him and Horford to be in a position where they could have more success, and more compatible with their natural abilities.
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Too undersized
IMO
"Your favorite kind of cake can't be birthday cake, that's like saying your favorite kind of cereal if breakfast cereal."- Parks and Recreation
Why?
how much smaller is he than Horford? Listed, he’s one inch and 5 pounds smaller. Ben Wallace is listed the exact same size and Smoove, and Smoove is at least as quick and as athletic as Wallace. A good summer in the weight room, and he can be a little thicker, stronger, heavier. If Al Horford and Ben Wallace are big enough to play C, so is Josh Smith.
This
and agreed. I see no reason why this isn’t at least plausible for most situations. Howard creates problems for everyone so there is no answer for him. I don’t see where this experiment could possibly be any worse than Smith hanging around the perimeter shooting long two’s that he can’t make.
"You could spend the next fifteen seconds of your life watching a man and a tiger scream together, or you could be an idiot."
Fact.
Wallace and Smoove are two different defenders/players
Smoove can’t body up centers, he doesn’t want to put in the effort, it’s too tough. Smoove is better at help defense. I’d rather have another person on the center and hope Smoove comes in and swats/alters the shot. Wallace did the grit work, he rumbled with other bigs every game. He recoginzed his defensive role on that Detroit team and sacrificed his offense. I don’t think Smoove is willing to make that sacrifice.
If he were, he'd win titles and awards like Wallace...
I think he is getting thicker, stronger, and will continue to do so as his body matures. IMO, it makes much more sense to put him there than the suggestions of making him a SF, and also if you challenged him to become a quality C in the mold of Wallace, he’d work hard to get strong enough to do so and his quickness would be a huge advantage.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 23, 2010 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Dudes 24, This is the body he's gonna have.
He’s been in the league 5 years and hasn’t put the effort into getting bigger. This is his body.
Disagree...
he’s added at least 20-30 pounds over the last 2-3 years, and could easily get bigger and stronger by 28.
Very optimistic
But he has yet to show me the commitment.
no
I couldn’t find it in a quick glance, but I’ve seen an analysis in the last few months on one of these Hawks blogs that showed Horford was one of the best defensive centers in the league. Of course he has trouble defending Dwight Howard but then everybody except apparently the Celtics has trouble with Howard. Therefore there’s no reason to move Al to the 4 whether its for Josh or some new center. Josh and Al are among the few Hawks players who are largely successful in their current roles and next year’s team should be built around them. There’s no need to tinker with what’s not broken. They just need a better defensive scheme and some better guards who can actually defend who don’t require the big men to run out to the perimeter to guard point guards.
I think Horford is an excellent defender at 4 or 5...
that’s just what he is. I also think he’d do better against perimeter based 4s like Reshard Lewis that Smoove. He seems to have better lateral quickness.
You can't change a team around
because of one or two players on the opposing team that plays the 4 differently. Adjustments can be made to guard those perimeter players. That why Woody was not picked up in his contract. He didn’t know how to make adjustments.
by Anonymous HawksGuy on May 26, 2010 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions
No one is changing the team around...
it’s adjusting the responsibilities of the two bigs only, and imo, adjusting them to something that allows both to maximize their ability. Horf would be better at 4 than he is at 5, and in my opinion, Josh at 4 or 5 remains about the same, or perhaps more effective as a C if it means he spends more time working around the lane and focusing on being better on the blocks.
No
We have to get bigger not smaller. Josh has been in the league for six years and hasn’t bulked up withstand much contact on the block. Unless he shoots a better percentage he shouldn’t even be starting. We need a center to give both Al and Josh more free range on defense and offense.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
Josh is not wide body enough nor strong enough
Smoove is a great and fast leaper, but he does not necessarily have the strength to man the center position. Many others have responded the same. He also is not a great day in and day out rebounder, which is part and parcel of being a center.
Lion is strong enough to play center against anyone, but he is not big enough to play against several. Even he knows it, and has been very supportive of adding a big body that Hawks management has not been willing to provide.
Clearly we need a solid big body that takes space, can push big centers out, and does not foul 4 times in 2 minutes. And by the way, I am curious why Sund is not being put under a microscope for signing Zaza and Marvin for the extensions he did last year. We are totally handicapped with our big men situation because of those two bad contracts that were done under Sund’s watch.
What’s wrong with Zaza’s contract or his play? I’d like to see what Marvin does for a new coach in a new offense before passing final judgment on his contract. Those two contracts are not nearly as crippling as Bibby’s. If you want to criticize Sund, do it for that.
How is Bibby the most crippling of the 3 considering it's cheapest overall?
and can be bracketed with a rookie contract in Teague?
And Paul, is Smoove that much weaker than Horf? And can he not work hard in the weight room to get stronger? Size and strength I think there are pretty close, so if one is big/strong enough then so is the other imo. Plus I think it suits their natural talents better. Horf can defend the perimeter better imo, while Josh is most effective causing havoc in the paint. While ideally, we’d like that big body ala Oden or Jevale McGee or Howard, they aren’t easy to find. I just feel that this maximizes Smoove’s ability around the paint by focusing his efforts there, where he can neutralize any size/strength disadvantages with his insane quickness and leaping ability. Plus, he’s a LOT bigger and stronger than he was just 2-3 years ago. As he gets 25, 26, 27, 28, you’d only assume he’s going to get thicker and stronger.
well IMO you are either born a center or you are not
it is a state of mind. Smoove, IMO, can be one of the best Power Forwards in the league. He can dominate with his blocking. Can he get stronger, absolutely. He already is very strong. With age one also gets strength. But I think his defensive rebounding, and lack of weight down in the legs, means he will give way to centers with low center of gravity.
I agree Lion can defend the perimeter better. Which is why…. some people may think i am crazy… but with his good enough outside shot, he may make a better small forward than Marvin. Assuming we have a wide body center..
Looking at his game...
Josh appears born a center, just no one has ever had the balls to put him there. He grew up with Dwight and RandMo playing inside, and people saw a 6’9, skinny, jumping jack who liked hanging around the outside, and no one ever said “Son, get your butt in the painted area and keep it there.”
seriously...
he shoots for shiat beyond 12-14 feet, does damage on the blocks, can’t dribble, can’t move laterally on D, he’s not a PF in the way that position has evolved.
As for defensive rebounding, that requires him wanting to box out and not being 20 feet from the rim when the shot goes up.
are you serious dude?
Smoove is by far no center! His is between a 3/4 dude. He has moves that a high post PF has and he slashes to the basket. He takes jump shots and 3’s and gets his blocks from help defense. Born a center………C’MON SON, you are out of order with your post? But you’re entitled to your opinion so I respect that….
by Anonymous HawksGuy on May 26, 2010 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions
He takes misses jump shots and 3’s
That’s better. There is nothing about his game that says 3 to me. He is effective around the paint, and extremely ineffective the farther he gets from it. The idea that he is even close to a 3 is ludicrous imo.
And some of us think the idea of him as a C is ludacris..
Brandon W: "What's up Heyward?"
Jason H: "Hangin with Freddie, What you up to Brandon?"
Brandon W: "nothing much."
by bwellnjonesco on May 26, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
His game fits there a helluva lot better than at SF
and the size problem doesn’t hold up. As said before, he’s not giving up much, if any, that Horford already isn’t as the two are pretty close to the same size.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 26, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Size and strength are two different things. They might be listed close to the same size, but Horford has much more lower and upper body strength..
Brandon W: "What's up Heyward?"
Jason H: "Hangin with Freddie, What you up to Brandon?"
Brandon W: "nothing much."
by bwellnjonesco on May 26, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I didn't say he made jump shots & 3's
I said he takes them. He’s closer to being a 3 than a 5 by a LONG shot. How many 5’s do you see run the follor in transition like him. How many 5’s you see in the top 10 in steals, blowing past 4’s and posting up 3’s. I don’t see Smoove banging w/ 5’s like Horford or playing the block against 5’s. If he worked on his quickness, lateral movement and jumpshot over the summer, he’d could be a shorter Bosh-type player. Able to face up to hit the shot, use is quickness and leaping ability to be a slasher and attack the basket, and use lateral movement to defend 3’s. His mentality wouldn’t allow him play the 5. And PLEASE don’t compare Smoove to B.Wallace again, to COMPLETELY different players. B.Wallace sacrificed his offense to focus completely on defense. His work ethic and weight room regime was uncanny, which made him stronger that most 5’s in the league. Smoove is not willing to make that type of commitment and we all know it. Smoove as a 5……c’mon son, that is what is ludacris…..IMO…..
by Anonymous HawksGuy on May 27, 2010 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions
he's been working on his quickness and shot how many summers now?
Hasn’t helped before, why would it possibly help now?
So you want to...
waste how many more summers on him trying to become a 5? He’s a hybrid 3 or 4. Teams (especially ours) want to get bigger at the 5 not smaller. Big teams make deep playoff runs. Funny, the Lakers, Celts, and Magic are all big…
please show me proof
that he has been working on his quickness and shot each summer. He took LESS jumpshots and 3’s this past season, which is a clear indicator that he didn’t work on those things. As TFriz stated, size has constantly killed us in the playoffs, why get smaller? Have a good leaping ability doesn’t mean that you’re gonna get alot of blocked shots, It’s about positioning and using your body. If a center, such as D.Howard or Bynum use their size and body against him, he’s useless. Josh is a 3/4 player, doesn’t not need to be at the 5 at all…..unless we’re playing the Bucks w/o Bogut again
by Anonymous HawksGuy on May 28, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
How is it smaller to start the same two guys?...
Josh Smith and Al Horford start down low, or Al Horford and Josh Smith start down low? How is one smaller than the other there when IT IS THE SAME TWO FREAKING PEOPLE!
And actually, with Josh’s length, leaping ability, and quickness, there is a lot of things he could do to counteract the size of Howard or Bynum.
And Josh Smith has been quoted for the past several summers as spending considerable time trying to improve his perimeter shot. Last year may have been the first time in his NBA career where he didn’t focus on developing a 3 point shot. Want proof, find it yourself, or just actually read what the man has said time and time again for years.
We aren't saying switch the Al and Smoove.
You made that up. Al is just the better option in a bad situation. I think we need to go out and get a center. I realize this is not easy or maybe even possible with the cap and our salaries.
You can’t use Josh’s length as an advantage against guys with more length than him. Howard and Bynum have more length and Howard has better leaping abilities. And it doesn’t matter how quick you are if you can’t physically step around the opponent.
I believe he realized that he can’t shoot as well as he thought he could. So he stopped forcing it and realized he needed to just be a slasher and use his body on smaller defenders.
That is what makes Smoove’s offence. He has the ability to post up smaller PF and SF and uses his size to score. By puting him at C you lose the advantage.
Basketball is all about advantages and how to neutralize the other teams advantages.
I know it's my proposal...
the question was simply, how can a starting lineup with the same two big men be “smaller” than themselves?
From AnonHawksFan…
why get smaller?
And the advantage offensively in the post changes from smaller SF/PF to slower C who he can likely turn, face, and blow by time and again.
I understand “Basketball is all about advantages and how to neutralize the other teams advantages”, but while Smoove at C might have some disadvantages to it such as size, they are already a disadvatange we have to deal with and it might create other advantages such as Smoove being much, MUCH quicker than the guy in front of him, kind of like Rondo vs. Bibby.
I will just say
respectfully of course, we agree to disagree. I understand your points completely, however, I just do not believe in your logic, and it’s cool, it’s good to show passion and ideas for our beloved Hawks!!
by Anonymous HawksGuy on Jun 1, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s most crippling because it’s the hardest to move of the three. Lots of teams would be willing to take a chance on Marvin and plenty would like to have Zaza as a bench player. I don’t know how many want several more years of an over-the-hill point guard whose only real strength is 3 point shooting.
2 years, this year and next, not "several"
although point taken.
by Mr. Sanchez on May 25, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Pachulia should be starting center
Horford at PF, Crawford at PG, Bibby at SG, and Smith at SF,
...in dixie land i'll take my stand to root for Atlanta
Smoove at SF is a joke...
he’s not quick enough to cover some PFs outside, he’d be abused by SFs. Plus it just gives him a reason to hang around the outside waiting, which is where he’s least effective.
opposing backcourts would score 60 every night
That would quite possibly be the worst defensive starting back court in NBA history. No thanks. If Crawford starts, the Hawks at least need to start Teague or some new PG who can play defense. I’m also not a fan of Smith at SF for all the reasons Mr. Sanchez listed.
This would never work
Imagine how many times a game Howard and Shaq are hacked per game without the foul call. Smoove would lose his damn mind and be tossed every other game.
Bet it hit the rim!
He's a different player...
doing different things, so I don’t think that is an apples to apples comparison. I also think some of the reason those guys don’t get the calls on every hack is cause a) they are hacked damn near every time and the ref doesn’t want to call 100 fouls, and b) they are so strong that you sometimes can’t really tell the contact as they bull their way through it. Basically, I don’t see Josh playing the power game like those two, which imo is a big part of them both being hacked, and not getting calls when teams chop at their arms.
I .love josh but we all know he can be a baby and whiner
Imagine if a basket doesn’t go in and he stays back instead of getting on his assignment. if aj coaches, he would go crazy
IF YOU CANT ACCEPT LOSING, YOU CANT WIN.
by Hawksgirl on May 25, 2010 8:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
whether he's a C, PF, or SF, that problem remains the same if it remains a problem...
so moot point imo.
I'm saying his lack of focus if he keeps it up will be maximized
The center is very important and if he doesn’t participate in the plays His team reeps the benefits or disappointments. Josh is all over the place whether its a play or not. I feel al is solid and focused. now if josh can mature more and stay focused, I do believe he could be a center
IF YOU CANT ACCEPT LOSING, YOU CANT WIN.
by Hawksgirl on May 26, 2010 11:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Woodson firing has Josh's approval
“It feels good to know we are not just satisfied with just being the eighth seed or improving every season. We’ve got expectations of going to the playoffs every year and being a difference-maker in the playoffs. The organization has everything going in the right direction.”
—Josh Smith on the decision to fire coach Mike Woodson.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
well no love lost there
Atleast the x factor knows when its time to change
IF YOU CANT ACCEPT LOSING, YOU CANT WIN.
by Hawksgirl on May 27, 2010 1:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think its time for Smoove to take over the team
move him to the 3, get a big in JJ sign and trade.
"Who Wants some pudding pops?, delicious and nutritious!
He already took over the team...
Didn’t you see his subperb jump shooting ability? Or his patented crossover?
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
i agree
Smoove is not a small forward. What is wrong with keeping Lion and Smoove, and adding a center, and having a rotation between new center, Lion and Smoove for center and PF positinos, and that semi-goofy dude named Marvin at small forward. Many teams do that with no problem.
For Hawks, it seems like most people want to have an either/or situation with Smoove and Lion. Look at Lakers, with their three bigs(Gasol, Odom, Bynum). look at Celtics,with Perkins, Bib Baby, KG, and Rasheed.
Hawks can do the same. No need to trade away the core. Smoove and Lion are integral to this team going forward, add a center. Then watch this team soar.
I agree with adding a C...
Lion and Smoove though, as I said above, I think it might maximize the performance of the pair if you flip flopped their positions.
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