Stupid little things, final thoughts on Hawks vs. Heat
by hawksdawgs on Mar 7, 2010 3:24 PM EST
56 comments
Watching this game on DVR again and specifically the fourth quarter, it is tough to not put this loss on Josh Smith. He turned the ball over. He shot jump shots, and he played truly horrible defense. I say that with a bit of regret. After all, Woodson was asking three perimeters guys to guard people none of them were capable of guarding. And our coach employed the best of three in a way that kept him from defending Wade after just one screen.
So while the Hawks lost mainly because the Heat hit shots, the Hawks missed, a great (and these days normal) Josh Smith performance could have easily led to different results. Josh Smith has begun to make excellence seem routine, and that bring a lot of praise, but it also means average is no longer good enough.
Before detailing Josh's fourth quarter poor performance, we should look at one exception because it goes to show how the small things in basketball actually matter. On that dagger Beasley three pointer (around 2:05 in the video), Carlos Arroyo innocently whiffed at a screen on Horford as his man went to set a screen for Wade. It made Horford jump sideways and Bibby, unwilling to make the extra effort to guard a guy closely who was probably not going to shoot the ball again, jogged after Arroyo. The jogging made Horford momentarily alter his path for a second time, and then he was out of position to cut off Wade's drive. That is all it took. Josh Smith went to help and Joe Johnson could not or was told not to or did not move over to the open shooter. And that was the ball game. Josh literally gave the "I just threw a home-run pitch" face before the shot even left Beasley's hand.
I give Josh a pass on that play even if his body language was deplorable. But every other fourth quarter make by Beasley was because Josh Smith did not try, made a bad decision, or could not/would not get back on defense. Beasley got his first two on a semi-break with Bibby guarding him and Josh not yet over the half court line. He hit a wide open curl without a single screen being set to free him, and finally Josh turned the ball over and Beasley sprinted the court for an alley-oop because Josh failed to mark him down the court.
It is tough to fault a guy for other people's weaknesses, but Josh has the skill and motor to make up for a lot of them. And a lack of effort is never acceptable. It is easier to get mad at an "A" student for making a "C" than a "C" student earning the same grade. Still, if you just want to blame Woody, I will accept any and all arguments.
Brief Loser Dots
- Isolations and ball hogging were not the issue for Joe Johnson. Missing open shots was the issue.
- Zaza cannot be passed too. It is not worth it. I don't care if he is wide open.
- Mike Bibby being the only one fighting for a rebound. Reason #320 why you don't want Josh Smith taking jump shots.
- Nique's fourth quarter color commentary was dark horse homer-tastic. Go watch it again. You would think the Hawks were beating the Heat by 20.
- Again, Al Horford, six shots.
Go Hawks!
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Fatigue
If you look at Joe and Josh in the 4th quarter, they were very tired mentally and physically. Josh’s passes were not accurate, Joe missed easy jumpers and they were both “slow” on D.
+1
This is the sad and pathetic reality of the NBA. You would think that the players’ union would have stopped the practice of traveling back-to-backs (at least) a long time ago. I just don’t get it.
As soon as I saw the recaps, i knew. FG% gradually dropping? Settling for jumpers more and more? Missing jumpers typically made? Not getting back on D?
Thanks, League.
I agree!
Josh looked a little winded a few times in the game to me too. He was doing a good job on Beasley most of the game. But in the end it seemed he was just tired. If I’m not mistaken Tito Jackson was quiet most of the game, he stated that Wade told him that he needed his help, well he said something like that and bingo, Beasley came alive.
And in my opinion every time Wade comes back from injury he’s unstoppable.
I’m not trying to make excuses for the team. But they are not machines. Coach needs to find a way to get more rest for the starters in the second half. And if JJ had flu like symptoms he shouldn’t have been playing anyway.
Mike Brown had the balls to rest Lebron. It’s time for Mike Woodson to do the same and give the starters some rest.
by DPhenomenal1 on Mar 8, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
get nique out of the broadcast booth
and into the coach’s box
The future has come...in the form of Jason Heyward.
Yes, Josh was sub-par in this game, we've come to expect so much better this season.
He played a lot of minutes the previous night, and got frustrated in this game, no excuse, just pointing out the factors. Again, having Marvin in late would have helped against Beasley, I’m still not on the “Fire Woody Wagon” but poor substitution costs this game. Joe Smith was having a good game, Mo was having his moments too, and neither them nor Marvin were seen late.
I love that you get more upset when Josh has a bad game
than when Joe has a bad game. Now you need only admit he’s the most important player on the team. :P
@cocoqt81
This notion that somehow Josh Smith is more important to this team than Johnson just has to stop.
Listen, Josh is getting better all the time and I am a huge fan, and I do recognize JJ’s flaws. But come ON already—Johnson’s mere presence enables the offensive-move-less Josh to get the ball low enough that he can score against one defender…SOMETIMES. I mean, if this team did not have JJ commanding double-teams we’d all be wondering why we ever drafted Horford and Smith, because as good as those guys are, THERE ARE MANY MANY PLAYERS IN THE NBA THAT THEY CANNOT BEAT ONE-ON-ONE.
There is NO ONE in the league that can guard JJ one-on-one…and that’s why the Hawks’ offense works. I know he shoots too much sometimes, But let me ask you all this: Those 4th qtr iso-joe struggles—are they self-inflicted? Are they as simple as getting to the line or passing out if the triple-team?
Those not-just-occasional struggles Al and Josh have with making shots…are they self-inflicted? Or are they because the two of them are very good but limited players?
They’re all necessary to the team and I too wish the Hawks played inside-out more often. But I am really over the Joe-bashing. Watch if he leaves. Back to .500 in a flash, people, because the others will look a whole lot different out there when teams can focus on them and not worry about Joe.
If Josh isn't doing what he does
this team is not as good. Period. It’s been that way for two years. If he’s not rebounding and playing defense and as Drew would say “trying” they’re not as good. That’s no slight on Joe, but Josh is the barometer for this team.
@cocoqt81
I agree with that, absolutely.
My intention is not to suggest that Josh and Al have no impact. I agree that Josh is, in a way, the “barometer” of the team because he is (still) a bit of an x factor—he has not always been consistent, and frankly he still is not consistent in the half-court set, in part because he still doesn’t really have a go-to move and can only shoot while moving to his left hand. He can score 29 against the Warriors, yes, but what can he do against Orlando and Cleveland? And I love the guy, seriously—I love his passing, I love his blocks, he has improved so much this year. But he does have a way to go yet to be the consistent unstoppable force a championship team needs to build around.
So, in a way, yeah…as Josh goes, so go the Hawks—because Josh is not good enough yet to be a consistent force against everyone. That’s my point—no Joe= watch the team lose 20% more games…unless Josh comes back next year with a go-to post move and a jump shot from 15 feet.
defense is half the game
josh is clearly the most valuable on that end every single night.
with his efficiency and assists, josh is way closer to joe on offense than joe is to josh. sure with Joe’s usage and skill, he is hugely valuable, but non efficient 20 point scorers are pretty easy to come by in this league.
Joe Johnson’s stats simply are not elite. he has carried this team. i mean willed it to win. sometimes he has been forced into that role and sometimes he forced himself into and i will never demean the results. still, all it takes is a two guard that can create his own shot and play average defense to do what Joe does. they are not a dime a dozen, but they are much less valuable than a Josh Smith.
that being said
i don’t mean that it is slam dunk argument. i think the Joe is the mvp many nights. But how many games has Joe willed us to win or set the tone for an entire game? I would say five or six. How many for Josh? at least ten.
yes i completely made up those numbers.
and maybe a better question, how many games has either guy lost us?
josh smith
PER 22.2
Win Shares: 8
Offensive Rating: 112
Defensive Rating: 101
joe johnson
PER 19.1
Win Shares: 6.6
Offensive Rating: 111
Defensive Rating: 109
Statistics are meaningless on this.
Because it is about style of play and matchups…Josh’s stats are positively affected by Joe’s presence. The whole team’s stats are positively affected by Joe’s presence.
I submit that Josh’s presence has little to no effect on Joe’s.
Who gets double-teamed? That’s all you have to look at, really.
a non stat arguement for you then
if you has to pick who goes down in a season ending injury who do you pick? Josh a 1,000 time for me. Crawford is a worse defender, but he can score just as easily. neither is good, but Josh Smith provides so much more than a few extra points. Also, with a much higher usage rate, Joe only assists on other players made baskets a little bit more than Josh. Josh makes lots of people better on both sides of the floor. he is naturally a better finisher than anyone on the team so he will receive more than give, but that is just playing to gifts not an indictment on his play.
and on the double team, josh does get double teamed. one reason joe gets double teamed more (although sometimes it does come right away) is because joe dribble around for 12 seconds. there is not a player in the league that is not going to see help defense if you dribble around for 12 seconds. Also, joe so rarely passes out of the double team/is not good at passing out of the double team, it is less risky to do so. Josh smith will pick you apart on a double.
We'll probably get to find out next year.
I am not saying Joe is perfect. I wish the guy would recognize his own flaws and get out of his own way. I hate the 4th qtr non-passing on occasion, the indifference to the high pick-and-roll, the lack of getting to the line.
But Hawks bloggers—many of them—are pretty hard on the one guy the Hawks have that completely compromises the other team’s defense and plays D well enough to not give back everything he takes.
And I submit this: Defense does NOT win championships in the NBA. If it did, Mutombo would have won several. You have to play SOME D to win, yes, and you have to play SOME team D. But what wins titles is a guy that no one can stop plus one other guy who can keep the other team honest.
There are only a few players in the league who can really compromise every single defense in the league. Quarters 1-3, Joe Johnson is one of them.
Dammit you beat me to it
I was going to say, does it count as a double team if its self inflicted?..
@cocoqt81
Well...
most players don’t get doubled. I mean, if you make or get a clear path to the hole, you may get two players on you. But actually drawing two defenders just because you have the ball—when has that ever happened to Josh? I have never actually seen Josh doubled, myself, though I certainly do not see every game.
I don't think it's that clear.
“josh is clearly the most valuable on that end every single night.” Both JS and JJ are above-average defenders who sometimes get a bit lazy and have their weaknesses. But along with Al and Marvin they are the best on the team. Who is the best? I have a hard time determining that. Josh’s flaws are still pretty big…he does have a difficult time with any player with good quick moves, because his footwork is still poor.
JJ guards the other team’s best player much of the time, and usually somewhat competently. Yeah, he can’t guard Parker or Curry. That’s his flaw. Conversely, how many times has any team strategically tried to switch onto Johnson’s man? He does competently share the load against LeBron, Durant, Wade, Kobe, Pierce…when they say “their length bothered us,” they are talking about Josh and Joe specifically.
The things Johnson does don’t always show up in the boxscore, but the other players and coaches in the league know it, apparently.
in the defensive scheme and with the player makeup
joe always guards the best player and then stops guarding him after one screen. (ie not as important).
the perimeter defense is horrible and that means help defense is an imperative, which is where Josh Smith excels.
josh’s man to man defense is still not great. it has improved, but not great. But i would say Josh’s D on Green of the Thunder when he monster dunked was an anomaly this season. Joe’s no defense on Wade was not.
The perimeter D is horrible
but not because of Joe. If you go back through the stats you’ll see that the perimeter D took a hit the very day Bibby came on board. Before then it was pretty good.
i should also say before this season
i think Joe’s defense has been above average. i think he did a great compensating for Bibby, and maybe it is the bibby, jamal, joe lineup now in place leaving Joe too thin, but joe’s defense has not been as good this year.
One of Joe's worst defensive flaws is that he does not play any in the second back to back.
You may recall that horrible Orlando game where he just let anybody do whatever.
But as for Wade…how many times do the Heat get switch Bibby or Crawford onto Wade? Does JJ cover him only? I’d have to go back through the stats to see what the Hawks did against Wade pre Bib and Craw, but I’d bet it was better than now.
and i guess that is where we differ
i feel everything Joe does well shows up in the box score because he has the ball so much.
whereas altered shots or shots purposefully not taken because of Josh never show up.
But it's a matter of scheme.
Like the triangle offense. There has to be someone that stretches the defense in one place in order to keep the rest of the defenders honest. Look what happens when the hawks play a zone lately—THAT is what the offense will look like all the time next year without JJ breaking down his single man.
throwing away defense
i think jamal is the single best guy to break the zone. joe never beats his man either. he out plays his man. but there is no beating off the dribble with joe outside a good crossover now and then.
Agreed.
Crawford is the best guy to start it, but beating a zone is not a one-man proposition—the zone will collapse on the ball even is he beats the first guy. So ball must go to other spots—and the other spots have to be in position to score, not standing around with their thumbs up their butts.
You can also beat the zone by passing into a position that draws two defenders to the ball, then passing to a cutter or spot-up shooter who has moved to a spot the defender vacated. But again…quick passes and off-ball anticipation are the keys.
JJ doesn’t do this well.
But my point is that without him the Hawks will look like this even against man next year because they don’t have a guy who can score consistently against any single defender in the league. Maybe Crawford. -But we all know what he looks like as the main offensive guy-he gives it back through off-nights and consistently terrible defense. There’s a long track record there.
That concern you had about Woody expanding his bench in March
was valid and has so far been unrealized. But hey, we’re only a few days in.
@cocoqt81
Horford and six shots.
During the four game winning streak he averaged 11 shots a game. The last time the Hawks played Miami (and lost by 18) Horford only had 7 shots. Does he not match up well? Or what is the deal?
Why not us? Why not now?
Not to mention Marvin and Evans did not shoot much either. In the second half we lost our balance
It was Josh and the guards and little else. Why?
by RivBoatGambler on Mar 8, 2010 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
I learned this last April while in Miami for Game 3
but it bears repeating. You don’t realize how much of a superstar player Joe is not until you’ve seen a real superstar in his arena. Dwyane Wade is a superstar. I wish we had a guy who could get to the like a million times. We don’t.
@cocoqt81
No argument there.
I am torn as to whether Joe could be that guy with a coach who insisted he pass out of double-teams better or learn to get to the line. But there is no doubt whatsoever that the threat of JJ alone scores points for other players by requiring defenders not to cheat off him, or requiring an extra defender to cheat toward him—just being able to score anywhere on the court with a bunch of different moves. I mean, how much different would this situation look if JJ just got the line at crunch time? Wouldn’t that do it, in terms or leading a team?
Who is better in terms of value to their team resulting in wins (strategic as well as statistical):
JJ
Brandon Roy
Baron Davis
Elton Brand
Chauncey Billups
Gilbert Arenas
and somehow Dwyane Wade cannot get his team to win more than 50% of the time. Is that because the individual stats are overrated? If Wade is such a great #1…
I say yes and yes, but you have to have a decent #2 to get the ball to when the d overcommits before the #1 can dominate. That’s why you can’t just look at these players’ performance based on stats, usage, etc. alone. That’s why you can’t just assume Elton Brand will be a smash hit in Phil. Honestly, too, that’s why the Hawks are winning; they many good number 2s. Both those guys are far less #1s than JJ is even if JJ is not a great #1.
Disagree...
Roy and Billups, as well as JJ, have vastly superior supporting casts than what Wade has. Those other 4 on the floor have a big impact on winning %. And in an ISO mode, Wade’s superiority to JJ is so obvious it can’t be ignored.
Would defenders cheat off their man if they felt Joe might pass, or if he’d get them in foul trouble attacking the rim instead of stepping back for a J? JJ is a fine #1, for a mid level team. If you want a title, he simply isn’t cutting it without a better defender next to him or more ball movement.
two points maybe we can all agree on
1. Joe Johnson opens up the floor for everyone else. That comes with drawbacks and advantages.
2. We all want to see if the floor could be opened up by getting the front court 28 shots a game. And what kind of negatives that brings.
right now we have two frontcourt players shooting over 50 percent from the floor who average 22 shots a game. To use Joe most effectively, he would open up shots for others, and the front court would have enough touches to open up shots for him.
It's simple.
When have the meltdowns come? In the 4th quarter. So one can guess fatigue does play a factor perhaps.
on back to backs maybe
but we don’t suck in the fourth quarter just on back to backs. we suck when we see zone.
Does
zone make it hard to pass or something? What is it about the zone that makes the Hawks just seem to lose focus?
Hoosiers' treatment
“I don’t want anybody taking a shot unless we’ve passed the ball at least 3 times.”
If the Hawks
lose to the Knicks tonight because of the big bad scary zone, I’m going to cry like a baby. It’s gonna take wins for the rest of the season for me to get over another lost to the sucky NY Knicks.
if the hawks lose to the knicks because they are allowed to play six guys
i am going to cry like a baby.
Joe or Josh
I think it’s a silly thing to argue over because I bet it’s what they might be mulling over in the locker room. Everyone has flaws. But the one thing that can definitely change is the fourth line up with three and a half spot up shooters ( a half meaning Josh). That alone spells doom if there’s nobody but Horford in the paint.
Now if they don’t want to change the jj, jamal, bibby, al, josh lineup then more effort has to be demanded of the two guard and three to REBOUND.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
more so on the three
so you can pretty much sum up who needs to be there at 3
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
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