Mike Woodson needs to be a better salesman
by hawksdawgs on Mar 29, 2010 5:42 PM EDT
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PrintMichael Tillery: Does loyalty from players and the organization allow you to go for broke regarding your coaching style?
Mike Woodson: I’ve never worried about my job. Every year, somebody has threatened the coach is going to get fired in Atlanta. It’s what it is. I just try to do my day to work with my staff and whatever happens is gonna happen. I can’t control that part of it. The fun part of this is that I’ve been able to grow a basketball team. Management and ownership has given me that opportunity. I’m just trying to take advantage of it.
Via an excellent interview with Woody over at the Starting Five.
Now Mike Woodson does not owe us full disclosure, and we are all guilty of hyperbole to prove points but "never" worried about his job? Never coached even a little scared?
I would be the first (ok, maybe the eighth) person to say I do not understand the nuances of coaching in the NBA, that things I see as bad are comprehended so poorly that my view of NBA reality is simply a naive construction of crap. I get that, but if Mike Woodson has really "never" coached with his job in mind, he must really have zero actual trust in his bench.
There is such a thing as coach speak. There is such a thing as reading too much into quotes. But what is frustrating about Mike Woodson is his inability to speak to concerns of fans. He does not need to rationalize every decision or explain away every coaching move, but there is no reason for his only public words to consistently tilt toward arrogance. We are not at war. This is not a your either with me or your against me situation. Fans deserve the right to be sold. We may not know much, but we know enough about basketball to know coach speak is not going to sell us on any coach.
At some point, Woody either needs to be honest or we need to come to terms with the fact that Woody does not know the issues with this team and/or have the ability to articulate them. Is "I try not to let the contract affect me, but I keep my job by winning and sometimes these past few years Joe Johnson playing 44 minutes gave us the best chance to win" or "Al Horford has been great since he showed up, but early on, I did not trust his foul management" too much to ask? Without any kind of honesty from you Woody, I get to keep living in the misinformed reality that you are not a good coach. Because if all I hear is "Listen, I have been at this a long time and in the NBA you got to do that ok..." well, I am going to say in this "with you or against you" quote machine I am, in fact, against you. You don't just "have to do stuff." That is not a good reason. Unless maybe you are coaching for your job.
Here is the deal coach. You have gotten so much better. Your resume is quite impressive on the surface with the Hawks getting better every year. But you are not perfect so there is no reason to act like it. Public opinion is probably not going to help keep your job or make you lose it. So I understand where media interviews might seem like a place where nuance and effort are optional, but if you cannot articulate your decisions publicly in a way that helps define players roles, affirms guys into better play, criticizes others toward improvement, and all those other good coaching things, well then what makes me think you can do it in private? If all you say is, "I have never been scared of losing my job." What is Jeff Teague thinking about his ability? How about Joe Johnson's tired, broken down body the last two seasons? Because to me, those things make me think you are very scared of losing your job. If you ask about team goals for the rest of the season and the only one you mention is not getting caught by the Bucks, well, you need to work on your sales pitch.
The best coaches use the media. They coax players to be better. They call out obvious detrimental play. They define roles for the eight man so that eighth man knows he is being counted on. Basically, coaches are always coaching for their job. They are working every angle. They are desperate to milk the last ounce of potential out of their guys. Not coaching for your job is taking this mentality to the maximum.
Unfortunately, the face you put forward for every part of your public portrayal is a coach I don't want leading this team. Is that the right view point? I don't know, but I would appreciate you articulating why I am wrong on occasion instead of just repeating "poor energy" after losses and "that's Joe being the all-star that he is" after wins. If it is your job to sell athletes who get paid millions of dollars no matter what on a vision of success, it should not be hard to sell me on one. Since you know, I actually pay to buy in.
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good read!
I totally agree with every word i woud be against him as well! can you say avery johnson or byron scott!
wow this gives me a better look on the situation
Woody is very “mechanical” to me. The same thing everytime and a hint of cockiness(isthat where josh gets it?) great read.
IF YOU CANT ACCEPT LOSING, YOU CANT WIN.
by Hawksgirl on Mar 29, 2010 8:03 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Don't blame him
The media in ATL has made it known that they dont like him. I remember last year, he made a statement that he deserves to be extended and the ATL media criticized him. If I were him, I would just do my job…Everyone( including my fellow bloggers) have made it know that they just dont like Woody. Nothing he does will change that.
In 6 years, he has been here, please show me an Atlanta article/ that praises Woody. I am yet to see one. 6 years of continuous improvement and all he gets is criticism.
I have come to the conclusion that the likeness of Woody is a personal thing and has nothing to do with his job.
Case in point: only national articles that criticize Woody are discussed here. Mid season, when he was one of the leaders for COY, no blogger/writer made mention of it.
I guess it is human nature. When you dislike someone, you only look for issues to strengthen your argument and ignore those that weaken your point of view.
I think Woody is probably somewhere in the middle ground of our two perspectives, and I accept that. I am wrong in my opinion. i just think I am more right than you.
but what does Woody do well specifically? in general, one can give credit to internal improvement by players. specifically, I just see Woody’s shortcomings.
the point of this post was to say i get that this view might be some internal bias. it may be scars from a season of wins in the teens. but woody should sell what he is doing. via twitter I know Horford does not agree with him all the time. we know from history that Josh does not agree with him all the time.
point is the Hawks don’t draw a crowd. in the end, woody’s job is to win. and he is suppose to win so that people come. right now, very few Atlantans support Woody. is that the media’s fault? maybe. but maybe that means Woody should put a little more effort in selling his vision to them.
What vision??
Lip service to defense?
(I know, that’s your point.)
In fact, the COY mentions were posted right here. THere was also posted here a link to a story on Woody's
lack of contract extension done by a Celtics blogger that was quite favorable to Woody, right about the time the COY talk was in full flower.
It’s interesting how that talk has died down, though, eh?
Game Face
Based on comments from Players and coaches that know Woody, the image he projects is definitely not who he is. It is obvious that he is a likable guy but for obvious reasons, he chooses to be very cautious and mechanical around the ATL media.
We're not debating whether or not he's likeable
This is not about whether or not we’d like to go have a drink with him. Woody is a nice guy, but he’s not a very good coach. As Drew pointed out, his players who are at the mercy of the guards do not think he’s maximizing the talents of this team on many nights. That cannot be discounted.
@cocoqt81
i agree, woodson should be gone
and youre right about the coachspeak. Theres a difference between coach speak and just downright not knowing what youre talking about. And I don’t think I’ve heard a single non-vague/coachspeak statement come out of Woody’s mouth all season. Every single game I’ve been able to watch, whenever the Hawk’s start off poor early and the sideline reporter interviews him, its been more or less, “we just need to start rebounding/defending/making baskets better.” I literally heard him one time say, “we’re just not playin well, we gotta start playin better if we want to win.” I have not heard him once identify a specific problem and try to adress it, and even if those interviews are put off by him, it still shows in the gameplay, he just doesn’t have a clue. And eventually he’s gonna fall off the wave of incredible talent he’s been riding by stagnating in the playoffs by getting outcoached.
Is it actions that talk louder or is talking that talk louder?
So HawksDawgs you are not happy that Woody is not entertaining enough for you or other bloggers, or that in general he is not a very good communicator. Is that how we are to judge our coaches? I like to judge my coach based on his strategies (switching defense, I despise), lack of playing rookies (I don’t get) or sticking with ISOs (I think it is a function of having no go to players for years, he is learning to trust Lion and eventually Smoove).
I ask you a question, do you think Bill Belichick is good communicator? Do you think he cares what the media say? Do you think he is a GREAT coach?
I think Woody is a decent enough communicator. He is never rude (example above), he always answers questions to best of his ability and does not disrespect assistants or players. He has never embarrassed us in the eyes of the world, unless shaving eyebrows is an example.
As I have said on this site before, judge him based on his record, judge him based on how his players behave in the community, judge him based on the dignity he has shown in times of toughness (as you said winning in teens and not losing it) or losing tough games this year and not blaming it on people, or running into that Punk from Dallas and taking the blame. That is how I judge a man.
I would much rather my coach does not use the media to disrespect his men (note Stan Van Gundy model in Orlando calling out Lewis is not the way to go). That actually shows weakness, it shows the coach is not willing to speak one on one, Woody has been tough on some, not tough enough on others. But calling out his men in front of public is not what I can agree with. After all, it is all about the team.
My last word on this subject my dear HawksDawgs, if you don’t want to judge him based on his actions, judge him based on the resilience of a team that every time they lose a very tough game, they come back and fight. That I think whether we like it or not, has to be also related to how a certain main has persevered whether losing more than 60 games, almost being cut by his GM, being given forward after forward and no point guard or center, or being pummeled by writers and bloggers that want change for the sake of change regardless of whether he is improving the team or not.
Do you think he's a good coach?
Drew does have a problem with his communication and rightfully so. Don’t come into the press conference listing all of the things the team did wrong when you did absolutely NOTHING to try to change it during the game. Don’t start every season promising to get the rookies more time and then once the season actually starts, bury them on the bench. Don’t not double team a guy who is killing your team. Don’t switch on every play leaving Mike Bibby on a player like Dirk Nowirtzki. Even if Mike Woodson had the communication skills of President Obama, he’s not a very good coach. He’s not a championship caliber coach. There’s not one thing outside of take care of the ball that this team can literally claim to be elite at doing. They’re an average defensive team and an average offensive team. They still don’t even know what they do well on offense. That’s coaching. They come out many a nights “just not ready to play” by his own admission. That’s coaching. I’m sorry, but the things Mike Woodson is most known for have absolutely nothing to do with basketball. Our head coach is a punch line most of the time, so forgive me for wanting a guy that everyone takes seriously and who actually has the capability of making adjustments or doing the little things that lead me to believe he can actually lead this team to a title. But, again he’s a really nice dude. Unfortunately, I couldn’t care less about that. I want a championship caliber coach and I don’t think he’s that.
@cocoqt81
I'd like it if he had a reasonable list for things the team did wrong
“We didn’t have the effort. We weren’t ready to play. The shots weren’t falling” That’s usually the extent of his comments after bad losses.
I’d certainly feel a bit better if he could cite more specific instances. Like “We really lost all ball movement after the third quarter. They’re too good a defensive team to attack entirely one on one.” Or, “They kept getting their shooters open using the double screen at the foul line-we had a tough time making the adjustment to that set.” Something that’s not overly technical, but it lets the fans who listen to press conferences know that he actually watched the game.
Woody has pluses and minus
Let’s put it this way, after the last 2 coaches between him and Lenny, I think Woody has a lot of positives I outlined in my response that is worthy of consideration. Is he championship level coach? That depends on types of players we can add to our core. Much of what you say on switching defense, or on his lack of development of rookies I agree with. Him coming and explaining after a loss why things went bad, is not among things I care. He is a coach and those guys act funny in those moments. I see the pain he suffered after the loss in Toronto, and I know he cares to his core. That is the important things for me. That is the closest thing I have seen him come to say we have to rebound after a missed free throw and not lose that fight at that stage of the game.
Some of what you said me smile, even if he could speak like Obama – lol. Leaving Bibby on Dirk or Durant or Pierce :)
I do think he is respected in coaching community, while I could not say the same thing for the man that put our team together who is since gone. I am sure in Charlotte, in Denver, in Utah, or some other city, a job is waiting for Woody if he is let go.
He is learning to adjust. An example, he changed in the last game against Pacers from doubling Hibbert to doubling Granger. Another example, though I am down on Marvin, I think he is a better solution at the end for Hawks that Bibby, I notice Woody is playing Marvin more at the end. My only point is we need to wait and see until the end of the year and playoffs before passing judgment.
that is the point
i judge him based on his actions. my judgment. which i say could easily be wrong, and he does nothing, and i mean nothing, to make me think otherwise by what he says.
and I know for a fact guys like Horford, Mo Evans, Teague have been frustrated with him this year. If Marvin ever got frustrated in general, he would be on that list. the job of the coach is to communicate. plain and simple.
Belichick clearly communicates. You see it in the results. There is a story I read about Tony Gonzalez in the probowl. He was on kick off return and missed a block (and I am paraphrasing here) but Bill said something as Tony ran by him off the field like “you block like a p#!%^.” Tony was shocked and asked what he said and Bill said “you heard me.” Tony was fuming. So angry at the disrespect. Next kick off he drilled a guy into the ground. Walked off past Bill and Bill said, “nice job.” It was then Tony realized Belichick had just gotten him to play all out on special teams in a game that no one ever tries in.
So no Woody would not have to be a great communicator with the media and fans if we thought he was any good, but most of us don’t. And despite that, he comes across as arrogant a lot of the times. From his interviews and post games, I have no faith that he actually has the ability to define roles for players and get them on board for a philosophy.
i think one could make the strong argument that team talent and individual players have improved and are the main reasons for the improvement and not Woody (although I think he has gotten better as a coach). He does nothing to make me think otherwise. I read a lot of Hawks stuff. You don’t hear interviews, read quotes, or pick up antidotes about how Woody has milked the potential out of guys. The last Woody story I read was on Josh Smith jump shots and he said, “I am going to keep shooting them Coach does not say anything to me when they go in.” so when coach comes to the stand and say “energy and focus were lacking tonight,” I am going to say You just sold me on what sounds like hard nosed 8th grade team. You are not selling me on any kind of NBA vision.
for an example in another sport using the Belichick example
Eric Mangini was mentored by him. Treats the media the same way. And the media bought into his game when he had initial success. “a chip off the old block.” now about to me run out of his second coaching gig, people don’t want jerk coach speech, they want answers. it is clear Mangini does not have any behind that gruff exterior.
You believe calling out players work based on how Tony responded
The Tony example is a good one in defense of your argument. Tony can take that type of abuse and thrive. On the other hand, the young hawks that Woody got, were a tender lot, and are still a sensitive psychologically. With exception of Lion, who is a MAN, all the others including JJ need to be taken care of with a soft glove, a fine line between cajoling and persuading, and making them a team. Ok may be a kick in the butt with Marvin may work, but I think Marvin is the player we have seen the last couple years for the most part.
Funny how you did not comment on the arrogance and communication part to media of Bill :)
You must agree that with all the difficulties with Smoove, it is interesting that Woody did not lose him. Now we can agree Smoove was young and has matured, but again to me Woody pushed Smoove the last few years. He must be credited with growth of an unbelievable talent who was raw, into an almost unstoppable force.
I also see the same kind of pushing happening with JJ, softly asking for ball movement. Even if he is not calling him by name. I have even seen him sit down JJ at time recently.
Different styles. The calling out of players in front of media and other co-players, is not a strategy I can agree with. If you think it is right to do that, then that is your outlook on how a good coach should work, not mine, and certainly not a standard template that always works. In NBA you have to be very careful how you deal with players.
Finally, I agree that Hawks would have naturally improved some, but the way this team has improved year after year, not to give a large part of the credit to Woody, would just not be fair. Regardless of the fact we may disagree with some of his strategies.
When all the money is gone...
Woody is gonna be gone. When Sund needs something to get the fan base excited, he’s always got “Fire Woody” in his pocket. Why would he ever get rid of that? It doesn’t matter how good of a salesman Woody is anymore.
After next year, the Hawks financial future is basically going to be set. Therefore, we can fire Woody after anything less than an appearance in the Eastern Conference finals. If that doesn’t happen, he’s done. If it does, then he’s good enough. That’s all that matters now.
whats all this switching criticism??
Have you all not heard opposing teams complain that the switching disrupting their strategy? Case in point, go and read what Granger had to say about the game..I don’t get the criticism… the only mismatch you get is with the point guard but when Bibby guards a fast PG it is a mismatch ..lol
switching is a good
when it works like against the Pacers. It is bad when it does not like against the 76ers. Go watch the 76ers game and tell me how that switch went. Or ask Manu how he likes it.
that is kind of like any strategy though. for some teams it will work. For others, not so much. you can’t blame Woody for that.
Woody uses the same personnel and the same strategy every night whether it is working or not. That, well that you can blame Woody for.
Are You Kidding Me?
Hawks are fighting for the third seed in the East (which is stronger than the West by the way). Coaches don’t have to explain their decisions to anybody. As long as you get the wins.
Hawks are a young team. They have improved every season, not just in wins, but moving through the playoffs. Give Horford one more off-season to work on offense, and I think Hawks are competing for one of the top three spots in the league. Hawks are last years Magic. A team on the come up, but definitely going to be a contender for a few years to come.
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