Jeff Teague vs. Mike Bibby: Closing Remarks

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me Drew wants to play for this season and Larry wants to play for next season. You both make some very valid points. Larry is on the side of the Hawks aren’t winning a championship so let’s see what the boy can do and perhaps the learning curve next year won’t be as steep. Drew is on the side of let’s get Teague more minutes, but try to go as far as possible this season. At the end of the day we all want the Hawks to compete for a championship, we just disagree about the method to go about making it happen as far as Jeff Teague is concerned. I wonder if he would be flattered to know that Hawks bloggers are spending so much time on him.

Mike Bibby should start. Jeff Teague should continue to come off the bench but could use more minutes no doubt. It’s not the rook’s time yet. Timing is everything.

First, rbubp, you sir couldn’t be more wrong about me. I have no need to try to debate that point, but if you read the blog you’d see that OFTEN I admit when I’m wrong – you just need to provide a compelling argument. Rarely was what i was saying in sync with what you were. It’s the same in this case – I’m not saying my answer is THE answer. I’m offering an alternative that i think has some merit. Can it be debated? Sure, and Drew does a good job with it, but there are some holes in it and I’m exploring them. None of you have said – well, if Bibby continues his slump, then what? None of you have said – well, if the offenses of both of these guys are equal, who do I want out there defending? You can talk about a lot of scenarios, but if you do – make sure they are apples to apples. I said if I shared your thoughts about the Hawks – debate over. I obviously disagree with Drew’s assertion that we don’t know the Hawks ceiling is. I do. I’m pretty confident based on our body of work that unless we play the Celtics – we don’t play a brand of basketball that will defeat the Cavs or Magic in the postseason. Could that be wrong? Sure could…I pray it does, but I offer this in saying – it’s more likely to me that the Hawks win a title with Jeff Teague as PG in the next 2 years than with Mike Bibby this year, so let him play now.

Now, the point being made by me is one where the philosophical point is one you’re refuting with points that skew to your view of success, so each time I point out exactly WHY i believe this is the best move for the Hawks. if I use your and those who have posted their replies views, then you are absolutely correct. So, since your lens is different than mine, I provided my point of view. I wouldn’t even propose this if Mike Woodson wasn’t our coach. I’m providing this as an option to help Mike over his inability to ‘find’ the rookie minutes that would allow him to develop. It’s a final attempt to get him to help the rookie develop.

So, that said – here’s my reply:

1. Again, in both instances of Mo Evans and Jeff Teague starting, you guys seem to believe that having these guys start means they have to play the minutes that Marvin and Mike play right now. I don’t share that belief – I do think the mix for when they play and who they play with when they play could provide positives. So, I watch just as many games as Drew – I’m fairly sure I watch more at the arena in a seat that affords me the same or better vantage point and I agree – Mike Bibby does attempt to help organize the offense both from the court and the bench. And how well is that going for us in the 4th quarter. You are correct – we aren’t having a problem starting games – rarely is the game starting effort in question. Ok, there’s a feather in the cap, but that’s not trending toward keeping those other times when Bibby is in the game and we’re playing horrid offense.

2. I offer different reasons for why Jeff Teague has not played well in stretches (though I’d completely disagree that he’s just bad – he’s also played well in stretches) and it’s that he doesn’t play consistently with a role defined by the coach. This is another thing that I think this move would help. You can’t look at stats completely to make your argument that he’s bad – 60% of his minutes have been garbage minutes. If you can parse out the 40% that show he’s simply a bad ball player vs. an INEXPERIENCED basketball player, I’d agree, but that’s just not a true statement.

3. I think dmortone gets to my point a little more clearly, which is if you believe that the Hawks can win a title with this team, then disregard everything I said…I just happen to not share that belief. I share that hope, but my blog is Hawk Str8Talk for a reason, so the realist in me says – we’re a 2nd round team. And to my final point…

4. Rajon Rondo…I repeat Rajon Rondo…
I will give you an example of a player where what I’m proposing worked…his name is Rajon Rondo. Started 25 games in his rookie year, no jump shot, very little experience, little confidence, etc. He went into the following season as the unquestioned starter and was the starting PG for the NBA champion. That’s essentially what I’m proposing with the added benefit of more PT in a postseason. While he had an extra year of play, I give you Rajon Rondo as my example for a player who played some as a rookie and then was turned loose. Now, so we don’t get into a pissing contest trying to find chinks in the analogy. No situation is going to be perfect, but I do think you’re making points that I’m not making because your paradigm is different.

My paradigm is that we aren’t going to do any of the things you want the Hawks to do WITH BIBBY, so I’m focusing on how the unknown now gives us answers to what we hope to do WITHOUT BIBBY next year. So, it makes Woodson coach more, it makes Teague grow up more, it doesn’t give you a magic (pun intended) bullet for how we beat the Cavs, the Magic, or Celtics. It also doesn’t sink it either…b/c I keep saying – you can sit the guy if he’s deer in headlights. That can happen too. And the reason it worries me little is because I don’t see us beating those teams anyway (well, the Celtics can be had, but it’s unlikely that we’ll be playing them in the 2nd round).

So, it’s a friendly debate and i cede to your thought IF I believed we were going to be in the ECFs or had a shot at getting the top seed in the East. I don’t, so I’d rather just get on with the final piece of rebuilding. As for Marvin, I won’t argue your point other than to say – I’ve always argued that Marvin as the 5th option on offense makes him passive and useless on offense in a way that him playing with the 2nd string could possibly change and unlock his offensive aggression. As for the defense, again – not asking for more Mo minutes, but trying to balance out the offensive and defensive contributions. So, that’s less of a debate than just a way to get more than 3 good offensive games out of Marvin this year. Is it proven? No. Would I do a debate on that with you? No. just would love to see Woodson try other ways to unlock the potential in the team. Anyway, it was fun..and I don’t pose it in anything less than fun. If i could get a guarantee that Teague goes into the offseason as the unquestioned starter next season, I’d back off of this a tad, but I don’t trust Woodson and Sund on this one. Just don’t…

Anyway, it is hypothetical b/c we all know it’s not going to happen. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t. (that was for rbubp). Cheers!

Bibby being on the floor to start the game, has cost the Hawks zero games this year.

is that Hawks fans are afraid of change. Most of you seem to fear the unknown. It’s like you all are only open to change if it’s a no-brainer and will provide instant gratification. Switch Flip for Jamal, of course we’re all on board with that. But the thought of switching Bibby with Teague has everyone un-nerved. I understand it’s late in the season and change shouldn’t really be necessary at this point. Teams should know who they are and what they do well. Unfortunately, this team still doesn’t know who they are and what they do well, at least not for a full 48 minutes. One place I disagree with you all is about a move like this upsetting Bibby. He’s in a season long slump, I’m not sure he could play any worse if he tried, so I don’t really see where any move surrounding him could yield worse affects than what’s already taken place. He has not been very good this season offensively or defensively so I don’t buy the notion that a move to the bench would hurt his psyche. Hell, it might inspire him to play better. I’m not necessarily saying Teague should start, but he needs to play with the starters if he truly is the future pg of this team. He’s probably not going to,so we’ll go into next year, (a year when the expectations will be and should be greater than they are this season) and we’ll have to deal with his learning curve then. I don’t think this is a good plan. None of us are going to be patient with Teague next year. It’s not in our nature. Playing him this season is not abandoning everything we’ve worked towards. Bibby is averaging 8 points per game and giving up probably twice that on defense.. We’d all be LOL ing if this were happening with another team.

why we’re harping on Bibby being a veteran when he’s played so poorly this year. He could very well be on the type of decline that he won’t bounce back from. And, I know it’s not sexy, but defense is important to winning games. So my question is, if he’s not giving you anything offensively and he’s clearly not giving you anything defensively, what’s the justification for keeping him on the floor? Being a veteran is not a good enough reason for me.

I think that’s what Larry wants too, and i assume he feels the start of the game is the best chance of that happening. I’m not going to be patient with Teague next year, because like i said the expectations will be greater. We all want Teague to get experience, it just seems that to most everyone here that it doesn’t matter who he gets that experience with. It goes without saying that the people he’s on the floor with have a huge impact on how good or bad he looks. He’s out there trying to be a facilitator to guys who aren’t the best finishers you’re ever going to run into. Bibby’s turnovers and assists should look better than his because he’s playing with far superior talent when he’s on the floor. I would just like to see what kind of player Teague is when he’s passing to Josh and Al consistently as opposed to Mo and Za Za. I don’t think that’s asking for too much.

I meant people are afraid of big changes, that’s why they want to give Joe a blank check and etc.

I have read both arguments but there’s one thing I haven’t heard. Is Teague practicing with the first team? The answer to that question would help bring light to the teague situation.

I haven’t seen a hawks practice since training camp on NBATV and even then I haven’t seen who practices with who and for how long. The only edvidence we have is the minutes that each player plays during the season, which could suggest the bench players are just practice dummies instead of players pushing for time on the court.
The players are comfortable with where they are on the team and I think that’s the biggest issue with regards to wanting to start Teague. The unknown of how he would start with the starters and for fear of jarring the rookie’s confidence (if something goes wrong) or starting out bad offensively are the main reasons he won’t start.

If I could know if he practiced with the first team I could, we could better assess this. Another thing to think about; How many times have we started behind the eightball trying to jump shoot our way back into the game with bibby starting?

Like u said before only more experience in the game will tell for Teague. There is no way he needs to start over Bibby though. Woody simply needs to give him more mins!