On Bibby and Teague and the starting lineup controversy that is not
by hawksdawgs on Mar 2, 2010 11:20 AM EST
58 comments
Larry over at HawksStr8Talk called me out for my absolute anti-stance over the notion of Jeff Teague starting. He demanded a response, and I aim to please. So here are my thoughts on why Mike Bibby should remain the starter. (This of course is a hypothetical argument because Mike Woodson would probably cut off both thumbs before taking Bibby out of the starting five for Teague.)
Mike Bibby sets up the offense
It may not be all clear and easy to see, but Bibby does make sure people are where they are suppose to be on the court. I know this because I watch Teague. Almost once a game, I have seen Horford or Crawford waive Teague in the direction he is suppose to be. He just does not have the offense down pat. In second or third quarter burns, those offensive sets might not be as important. That spacing not quite as relevant. To start the game though, Joe Johnson is going to curl off a screen, both bigs are going to get a few touches down low, and Bibby is going to hit a baseline jumper. Offensive sets are run. And we may not like those sets. We may find them unimaginative, but they are the sets, and Teague has shown little ability to get the Hawks into them.
The offense is not set up for a slashing and dishing point guard. It can work because that kind of offense always works, but to start out the game, Bibby is a better fit to run the actual offense. It is not ignoring the evil that it is Woody's offense, it is dealing with the reality of the situation. You can't just say "it shouldn't be that way" because it is that way. Next year, hopefully a different story.
Change of pace
Used well, Teague can come off the bench and provide a spark. He can push the pace. He can change the tempo. He can get open shots for guys that cannot create as easily as the starters. Mike Bibby can do none of those things. If Bibby is in with say Crawford, Mo, Josh Smith, and Zaza, one of the other four guys is going to have to create for Bibby to be useful on offense. I don't want Zaza or Joe Smith or Mo or really any bench guy but Crawford to go one on one to create their own shot or shots for others. Basically what is the better scenario, watching Mo Evans or Zaza dribble around trying to create separation or have them shoot open looks? With Bibby in, you are going to see Mo and Zaza creating on their own. With Teague in, you are going to see them catch and shoot.
The problem
Mike Bibby is in a shooting slump. It is not like he got old and stopped driving the ball. Well he did, but that was about four years ago. No, Bibby is just not hitting open jumpers as much as he has in the past. It may be partly age, but I think it is more a slump.
On the other side of things, Jeff Teague is a rookie. He has proved nothing. Most of that is Woody's fault, but putting him into the starting lineup at this point is a pretty big unknown. And that is just on the basketball court. Off the court, benching one of your veteran's can have real effects on the team's chemistry on and off the court. Without any real sense of what would happen at all, I would much rather Teague get minutes with the first team in other parts of the game first. So far this season, he has had next to zero.
Finally, in the last five loses, the Hawks have only trailed twice after the first quarter and once by any kind of large figure (10 points against Dallas). Rarely has the first period been an issue. It has been the fourth quarter. Or the third quarter. Or the second quarter.
Risk reward
If you asked 100 people what was a weakness for the Hawks, I think most of those 100 would say Mike Bibby in their top five answers. Yet if you asked the same 100 people how to make the Hawks better, I don't think start Jeff Teague starting would be in their top five answers. The two questions don't dictate correlating answers because Stephen Curry is not sitting on the bench, an unknown is. And for the Hawks, it is known solutions that need to be implemented. More shots for the front court, greater emphasis on rebounding, better ball movement, and more decisive moves into and during isolations.
Jeff Teague might make the Hawks better as a starter, but I can honestly say I have no idea. No one does. Why clamor for a change that is neither proven nor statistically backed up? The perspective is to ignore Jeff Teague's faults as rookie issues and lament over Mike Bibby's faults as unalterable truths. But the fact is, Jeff Teague is not that good yet. He is just not. And one of the reasons the Hawks offense remains in the top ten in efficiency is turnovers. Teague will not help keep Atlanta there. The risk/reward is far too great a gap because, in a best case scenario, Jeff Teague as a rookie is not going to win you multiple more games than Mike Bibby (if we had started Teague would we really be on pace for 60 wins?). Drastic changes to continuity though can lose you multiple games.
The Hawks are a very good team, and at this point in the season, offensive or defensive philosophies are not going to be altered, but subtle changes can occur, should occur. I would love to see Jeff Teague in new and different ways, but putting him into the starting lineup does not stop avoid iso Joe or Jamal, it encourages it. It does not help the Hawks jump shooting, it hurts it.
Next year, with a full summer working with the first team, a year of NBA ball under his belt, and Mike Bibby switching roles and not getting demoted roles, I say yes, give me Teague in the starting lineup. But right now, switching point guard starters is fixing a flat tire while your car is on fire and you have a fire extinguisher in your hand. And all you have is doughnut spare anyway.
Go Hawks!
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Loved the ending!
I am personally on the side of wanting more minutes for Teague. It’s not going to happen this season though.
@cocoqt81
The best point was about the first quarter
we’re not bad in the first quarter with Bibby starting. It’s just too many minutes for Bibby and too few minutes for Teague. I’d just like to see Teague CONSISTENTLY play the beginning of the second quarter and the end of the 3rd/beginning of the 4th. Like the article, good writing. Go Hawks!
Don't want him starting...
but I’d like to see him getting 10-15+ minutes per, especially vs. worse teams that have quick, young G like the 76ers and Warriors this week, on the road against the Knicks, Wizards, and Nets coming up. Give him over 60 minutes in those 5 games, and we might have a better idea of what we’re working with going forward. Either way, Bibby is showing his age and that he is not a good idea for anything more than 20 minutes a night the next two years of his deal.
Just for the sake of argument
I understand why Hawkstr8talk wants Teague to start. He doesn’t think this Hawks team is a championship caliber team as currently constructed and or utilized. I don’t think any of us can disagree with him. Do we all hope for better? Surely, but deep down we know we are not. Anyhow, just like there are those of us who are not afraid of losing Joe in free agency, there are those of us who will be okay watching Jeff Teague go through some growing pains if it will genuinely tell us if he’s the point guard of the future. WE can all agree that Bibby is not it. I feel like the Hawks are doing themselves a disservice by not finding out if the pg position is one that needs to be addressed this summer. I’d like some data to prove that Tegue is the future at the pg position. Honestly, have you all seen how well other rookie point guards are playing? And one could certainly argue that the talent around Teague is better than that of some of his peers. Basically, Teague is not going to get better at running this offense when it matters if he never runs the offense when it matters? Since there will be growing pains either way, I’d rather the growing pains come before the most important summer of free agency this Hawks franchise has seen in a while.
@cocoqt81
i agree to an extent but
1. jeff teague can get experience not starting.
2. the hawks can beat anyone if they play well and well has nothing to do with Jeff Teague starting.
Yes he can get experience,
but wouldn’t it be nice to see what he looks like with the guys who are going to be starting beside him?
@cocoqt81
what i am saying is
he can get those minutes with the starters without angering Bibby, causing locker room issues, and messing up something that works pretty dang well in the opening few minutes of games.
I don't mean he necessarily has to start,
but he does need to play around the starters because let’s face it, on any given night Za Za could make any HOF point guard in the history of the NBA look bad.
@cocoqt81
no mention
of how we are prohibiting teague’s development as a PG by playing him off the ball with Crawford? Unless he gets the defensive rebound himself, Teague is pretty much relegated to playing off the ball as Jamal goes into isolation mode. How is Teague learning anything about how to run an offense and even where proper position is for his team by standing on the wing watching Crawford shake n bake everyone?
While it’s true he shouldn’t be starting, he should get some burn with the starters so he can learn how to pass into the post to good post players, or how to kick out to good/well spaced shooters. Right now he is learning how to stand and wait. . .
great point
it drives me crazy to see Teague run to the corner as Jamal or Joe initiates the offense.
So, Woody is wrong...
and the lineup should be
Teague
Joe
Mo
Smooth
Horford
with Bibby, Jamal, Marvin, Zaza off the bench in a 9 man rotation (if Ilgauskas is added replace this Z for the other Z)?
imo
the only bench role that matters is the 6th man. the rest of it is lineups and minutes.
i like the Hawks five starters and i like the 6th man. in no way have those two things been a problem for Atlanta this season.
the lineups and minutes there after have left much to be desired.
240 minutes...
divide by 6, and you’re looking at 40 minutes per. I prefer to have a legit 8 man rotation so it’s closer to 30 per for each.
Although the above post was a joke, I’d be fine with changing it up a bit to see what we really got in Teague. Not starting, but certainly playing more.
Why couldn't
Bibby run a pick and pop with Joe Smith? Or a pick and roll with Zaza? I don’t think putting Bibby in the second unit would result in Mo having to go one-on-one. I mean any good coach would know that is a horrible idea, right? Right?
because bibby rarely runs the pick and roll with the first unit
and teague never runs the pick and roll with the second unit.,… wait, why am i crying?
All I know is that Darren Collison
is playing so well and he’s so cheap that Chris Paul might become available. I need us to have more than an assumption that Teague is the guy going into this summer.
@cocoqt81
And what would be the deal?..
Joe Jo and Bibby for Paul and some expiring contracts? It’d need a sweetner like Smooth or Horf, or SEVERAL draft picks.
It would require some creatvity and perhaps another team. This isn't really about Paul
it’s about our needing to know if the pg position needs to be addressed at all. I don’t want that point to get lost in my wishful thinking about Chris Paul :)
@cocoqt81
Chris Paul
is an amazing player, and as much as i love JJ, i would do this trade. But i think NO would be crazy to give up the best point guard in the league. Having said that, it is an interesting pickle they are in with their own rookie, which is a truly amazing rookie point guard.
When I say available
I mean there’d have to be several phone calls and messages that might go un-returned for a while. I don’t think Sund is an idiot, but he’s not necessarily a genius either. I hope he doesn’t get comfy and complacent like he seemed to do prior to the trade deadline. He did draft Teague though so he may be fine just assuming he’s the answer.
@cocoqt81
My Problem...
Teague can’t learn everything in practice. If our offense is not set up for the kind of point guard he is, then why draft him? He needs minutes to get better and Woody just refuses to play him. If we played him early in the year, then this wouldn’t be an issue. But the problem is Woody not playing him… Do I sense a pattern here? Was Acie Law really that bad? I guess its a mystery that will go unanswered. “Like how many licks DOES it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop?”
I love the Hawks, but Woody just irks me…
"If I disagree with you, it's because you are wrong..."
again, i want Teague to see more time
but starting him is unnecessary and brings in other negatives that could be avoided.
solve the problem, avoid the negatives, seems easy enough.
I understand your point
But you’re only assuming those negatives would occur. There is no proof whatsoever that starting Teague a game or two would cause locker room in-fighting or Bibby to become angry. He’s a salty vet in the league so I’m sure he would understand that the team needs to see what’s in Teague as a starter.
Plus, do you really think Bibby wouldn’t welcome the night off?
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
i am just saying
it would be nice if Woody gave him time to see if he would be good starting. instead of not giving him time, and then deciding to start him. the former just makes more sense.
Understood
I think giving Bibby a night off against a mediocre team and starting Teague would be a great idea. Not only are you taking a minimal risk in losing the game against an inferior opponent, but you are also giving Teague a huge confidence boost, not to mention Bibby gets rest.
That’s a win-win-win in my book.
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
I am cool with Teaue getting more minutes but I'm not ready to have him starting.
He’s not ready yet. I like his energy of the bench. Like it or not, Bibby is the floor general. He runs the pick and roll with Smoove and Al to perfection 95% of the time. He needs more minutes but I’m not sold on him starting. Woody can adjust the lineups to get him used to being on the floor with the starting unit as much as he likes but I’m not confortable changing any lineups this far along in the season unless absolutely necessary. When Bibby is hitting his jumper, we’re a tough team to beat. Teague’s jumper isn’t there yet. One could argue that with all our trigger happy guards, a non-trigger happy one is just what we need. He needs to work on one thing at a time. Kind of like Rondo…get the passing down. Then work on his jumper.
And there's the kicker
When Bibby is hitting his jumper, …
That hasn’t really been the case since what, December?
I think what might be lost in translation from Larry’s point is that it’s not a requset to change the starting PG for the remainder of the season, but instead that we should at least see if Teague can handle the starting role at all by giving him the start for a couple of games, and not necessarily back-toback games either. I could be wrong and Larry really wants Teague to get the starting nod full-time, but that wasn’t the impression I got from his posts and it’s not what I would want right away.
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
Me either...
I don’t think he should start at this moment either, but he should get more run than Mario West!!!!
"If I disagree with you, it's because you are wrong..."
I just feel like
Woody is setting up a rough transition for the young fella. We all know Teague is not going to get anymore minutes. It’s March, the playoffs are literally right around the corner. This is our team and their game plan has been all but written in blood.
@cocoqt81
Maybe Bibby sprains an ankle..
or has some other minor, quickly healed injury that can open up a big bulk of minutes for Teague over 3-8 games.
Agree/Disagree
Disagree: The Hawks are not on pace for 60, they would need to win the rest of there games and they are not on pace to do that.
Disagree: That you seem to insinuate that you would like to see Woodson removed next year, when that would bring about just as much of an unknown as putting Teague in the starting lineup. I personally don’t believe whoever you go and get is going to make the Hawks better, especially if they want to change both the offensive and defensive strategies. You guys consistently complain about the offense but a new coach would likely change the switch everything on defense philosophy also. I think changing the entire scheme of team would change the course of organization and result in a set-back, look at how many teams in the East are currently above or right at .500 as opposed to recent years, the East is getting better and better we dont need to take a step back.
Agree: That it does not make sense to put Teague as a starter when he has proved nothing and it is a virtual unknown how it would work. Let’s give him some minutes with starters first, by the way, I thought last night was a good oppurtunity to do that, but with Jamal on the team and able to play some point, it will be hard for Woody to ever look to Teague before Jamal.
see where you are confused
but what i meant was to ask, would the Hawks be on pace for 60 wins if Teague was starting? meaning would we be on pace to win more games than we are now which is a pace for, I believe, 53 wins.
thus, the statement that precedes it. jeff teague is not going to win you multiple more games than mike bibby.
Okay
Cool, but what about the Woody insinuation?
the difference is this
whereas the known of Bibby starting does not adversely affect the team (meaning the first six to eight minutes of the game before Crawford comes in). the known Mike Woodson does hurt the team.
could the team step back without? sure. will the team be a championship contender with woody? I don’t think so. so in this case, i think the risk/reward is worth it because Woody is a defensive coach and outside of two incredibly athletic and skilled front court defenders, the hawks are quite bad at defense. he brings continuity and that is it.
and in regards to Teague next year, Woody has never shown he likes an offense with a drive and kick point guard. He likes his PG to sit and hit three pointers. Teague would be helped by anyone but Woody coaching.
So....
You are happy with so many isolations and not feeding the post? It seems like its the same thing every year. We hear at the start that we need to run more and we get a pt guard to do that. Then we bog down and give Joe the ball to go ISO.
I see us advancing to 2nd rd and then to the crib. I am tired of seeing the same thing game in and game out. Maybe a change of coaches will give us a better look. I dont think Woody can take us to the next level…
"If I disagree with you, it's because you are wrong..."
naw teague doesnt need to start
though woody isnt doing as bad as he was…..only thing is his ability to use the bench efficiently which he seems to be getting(sorta). Teague is better than acie, I can see that already. Acie could shoot but teague can play d and he
“can” be a good shooter(he was in college).
But...
I never saw a player get his shot off from the bench…lol
"If I disagree with you, it's because you are wrong..."
Is the problem the system?
Since Bibby’s role has been defined as a spot-up shooter, he has struggled.
Is part of the problem that Mike is use to the Sacramento years where it was all passing and ball movement? Is he just uncomfortable waiting for his shot at the 3-point line?
Mike Bibby is the point guard
so one would think he can control ball movement. He’s just as content as Joe and Jamal to dribble 15-18 seconds off the clock, the only difference when he does it versus when Jamal and Joe do it is they are looking to shoot, he is looking to force someone else to shoot. with little time left. Not that the “system” isn’t a problem, but as the floor general he’s in a better position to correct that problem than anyone else. Otherwise, what is he there for?
@cocoqt81
Too big a move to make at this point of year
Excellent arguments on both sides and good articles on both fronts. Thanks Co Co for the link.
I am a huge Rookie fan. But as one gets older as me, one gets more conservative. The time for the experiments of the nature we are discussing, starting a rookie point guard with about 1/3 of the season left to play, on a team that I truly believe, can do damage in the post season, is a hugely risky move.
We need rookie in there, i understand how when he comes in, most of the starting unit is beginning to leave and take a break. That can change a little if rookie is substituted for Bibby as opposed to Jamal. And Jamal comes in for JJ or MArvin when either is not doing well. That way we get rookie to play with the starting unit more.
The danger with having a rookie point guard start in the middle of season is two fold. First as the post in the link says this is a good move only if it can be worked out in the club room before the change.
Now I ask, which player of Bibster’s caliber, would take a move like this lying down? There is not one starter of this caliber player, that has had the history of Bibster, that is not going to get upset at this change. A rookie for a veteran player. An excellent veteran player with the history of Bibster.
Secondly, we don’t know how rookie will play. Heck we don’t even know how the rookie will play if he gets 20-25 minutes a game consistently.
The first step, so as not to mess up team chemistry this year, is to give rookie more minutes, consistent minutes, and not take him out as soon as a mistake is made. His style will have more turnovers, there is no doubt about that, that is where Woody needs to face his demons. The time for experiment is next year during the exhibition season. Comparing Hawks to teams that have other rookies starting, is a little unfair because we are a very good team. I don’t know how far we can go, but I do know every team in the NBA with the exception of Magic, does not want to face the Hawks. We are more than a dark horse, we are a very dangerous dark horse.
I think Woody is breaking down, and now letting Marvin finish the games, and he is beginning to give more consistency to rookie to play, though not necessarily the minutes. LEts get the rookie the 20-25 minutes a game, and lets see how he does. Yes i also hate when he creates and Zaza or Joe Smith miss the opportunities he creates, but again, he will get some minutes with the starters.
Bibster change need to happen off-season, not now, it is too risky a move. Hawks will do damage this playoff season and there is something to be said for chemistry…
Im Sorry but Teague Sucks
if Teague were to be in the starting line up then the Hawks would be doomed to lose. Every time he gets in the game the Hawks begin to lose their lead or get deeper in a hole. We have one the worse rookies and there is NO WAY he can run the point better than Bibby, even with Bibby in the shooting slum!
That's not true at all
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
teague has shown flashes of being much better than bibby
but the stats say he is not as good. we just won’t know if the stats are right or the flashes are right until he gets meaningful burn.
naturally, i would, like you, wait until the stats bent away from terrible before putting him in the starting lineup, but no one can say teague sucks. we don’t know either way.
thanks woody.
pulling away from the status… i jus cant see Teague being a leader. He always seems frantic wen put into the game but that could be from Woody not playing him. Like u said time will tell but i still feel Teague will never be as good as Mike Bibby wen Bibby was in his prime.
How good was Bibby in his prime?
Mike Bibby was never a dominating point
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
Last Note
Let me set the record straight – while I’m not afraid of the move I proposed (with TWO BIG CAVEATS – Bibby not shooting and no locker room discord) – I don’t think it happens and I’m not really proposing that it REALLY happen. I would like to see Teague have games that he gets more burn than Bibby as a purposeful move to rest Bibby AND to get Teague experience with the starters. So, yes – I would love for Woodson to have been doing that from the beginning, so that all these unknowns about him could have more full answers.
If Teague really sucks, we’d need to start figuring out if it’s experience or if it’s the fact that our draft pick was bad and that we need to use the offseason to address the fact that Bibby’s not getting better. I will continue to say that we need more to win a title, so that’s where this comes from. I see a lot of literal debate, but seeing folks not debating the relative merits of both. I see Bibby apologists providing little to no answer for how to solve his ills and that’s what my post is about – if Bibby sucks, what do we do? Just watch it happen. That to me is a poor answer…maybe my Teague starting answer isn’t it, but what is…anyway, love the debate…
The answer is
get a point guard with more potential/ is better than Teague. Neither Teague or Bibby are gonna help Hawks win a championship, but Teague doesnt get them a step closer either.
The Hawks seems to be overly worried about getting a bigger “big man”, but i want them to worry bout getting a point gaurd that is going to actually run the point effectively, which isn’t Teague!
Bigger Question is...
I am more disturbed by the fact that the Hawk fan base is scared of change – let me be clear, we will need to make more changes and very soon to win a title. We can do nothing and be the ‘97-’98 Hawks all over again. While all this losing could make those days palatable, I have to just throw my point over the fence and say – I’ve always railed against anything that keeps us from a championship. Bibby’s presence doesn’t make us a championship team. That’s really my frame of mind – if you disagree, show me why you believe we can win a title with Bibby.
That would go a long way toward me conceding, but that’s going to have to be a helluva argument. Ask rbubp!
I don't think they heard you...
But I am totally in agreement!!!
"If I disagree with you, it's because you are wrong..."
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