Atlanta Hawks/Toronto Raptors Game Review: Bosh, Turkoglu Steal the Win
by The Human Highlight Blog on Mar 18, 2010 8:00 AM EDT
79 comments
Laptops were shut down. TVs were turned off and cookies were left on the table.
That's what happens in The Official HD Viewing Center when games slip away, leaving the Hawks losing their grip on the lead and the game as they did in the 106-105 late game loss in Toronto.
The Hawks had the lock down on the Toronto Raptors, they of the can't-play-defense reputation. Atlanta led 101-92 with under (4) minutes left on Jamal Crawford's amazing 32nd and 33rd points.
The Raptors, to that point, had played only temporary defense, allowing the Hawks to get open for plenty of open three point looks and trips to the rim. In the fourth quarter, Al Horford asserted himself on the perimeter focused Toronto front line and scored (10) fourth quarter points inside, the last of which gave the Hawks a (6) point lead with 1:37 left to play.
That, however, was the end of Crawford and Horford's scoring--and the Hawks as well.
The Hawks couldn't get the ball into Horford as Bosh overplayed well. They forgot that Josh Smith was effective in the high post, getting his 7th assist of the night the only time the ball ran through him in the final quarter. As stunned as we were watching the game, the Hawks seemed leg-locked as well that Toronto, who had struggled mightily lately, was playing with such desperation and precision down the stretch in this game--one the Hawks had seemed to have in hand.
Instead the Raptors took advantage of the Hawks sudden pause--Hedo Turkoglu had (6) points and a key assist in the final quarter, Chris Bosh scored (8) of his (14) points in money time, and Andrea Bargnani had (5) critical points late in the game that gave TOR their final hope.
Still, the Hawks had the game won if they could just have corralled Turkoglu's errant second free throw up by a point with (14) seconds left. No image typified the final two minutes of the game better than the look of discomfort Marvin Williams had when he found the ball chasing him out of bounds and trying to decide if he should touch it or not. There was no right choice to be made.
With Toronto retaining possession, all they needed was another reversal of fortune, which they got when Bosh, who had been more than adequately defended once again by Horford and Smith in this game, decided to step back and launch a long 2-pointer to take the lead. This time, unlike the 13 of 18 times previously, the ball swished through the net.
The Hawks final play was as hectic and disorganized as the rest of this muddled conclusion. Crawford's final attempt fell way short and the Raptors had the win they sorely needed---taking it right off the middle of the Hawks victory table.
Bright (and uglier) Spots on the Face of the White-Hot Burning Anguish Of Losing a Game That Was Won
Mo Evans was balls-out in this game. We noted in the recap the night before against NJN Evans' aggressive play and it continued in Toronto as he was strong scoring the ball, inside and out, providing (16) points in place of Joe Johnson.
Johnson may have been out of the lineup, but the Iso-Joe was in full effect for two terrible possessions late in the game. Johnson's understudy, Crawford, filled the role vacated by the Achilles-sore Joe. Crawford was high scorer on the night, going 14-25 to get his (33) points, but he missed on his last three shots.
Toronto's gaping 3-point defense allowed Mike Bibby to continue his return to effectiveness (17, 4, 5, 6-11/4-5). Wasting Bibby's (35) minutes of effective work was yet another regret of this outcome.
The Hawks lost their heads early as Bibby and Josh picked up technical fouls and the Hawks gave up (31) Raptor fast break points with some continued shaky transition defense.
Give the Raptors credit in that, in a game they were widely reported to need to win, they flipped the script in a couple of areas that have caused them problems all season. They have not been good all year in Turnover Margin and especially bad since March 1st, but they beat the Hawks 11-5 in that category tonight. This was also true in another sore spot for TOR, offensive rebounding. The Raptors, one of the Bottom 10 worst teams in Offensive Rebounding Margin, whipped the Hawks 12-7 in that category as well.
Ballgame.
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Hawks
Are lottery team without Joe. I can see it now, Joe moves on this summer, by January Josh figures out that he is re-living his first couple of years and ask to be traded. Al asks to not be re-signed or signed and traded, then we see how many of you will totally understand what it meant to disrespect what Joe meant to this franchise
What in the hell are you talking about?
Every time you comment it’s to say the Hawks are a lottery team without Joe. Get over yourself. yes the Hawks could have and should have won this game, but Toronto played like a team who had lost 9 of 10 and 5 straight. In other words they played like they desperately needed a win. That’s why they were able to come back late, because they didn’t give up. So for a stretch of a few minutes the Raptors played there’s no way in hell we’re losing this game basketball, and all of a sudden it’s an indictment on the whole Hawks organization. Um no. One win without Joe and one loss without Joe hold the same weight. No one’s opinion about Joe’s worth to this franchise has changed. My opinion of him as a player is still the same. If we’re judging players on a game by game basis, then prior to the last 14 seconds Chris Bosh is a player worth nothing more than the MLE. See how stupid that reads?
@cocoqt81
And how is a possible lottery pick bad?...
Say we reinvest Joe’s money into one year deals, or potential young stars like Foye and Childress, and we end up in the lottery. Retool, maybe deal one of those young players for some nice pieces and use Crawford’s expiring deal to add the right piece from a team looking to shed salary, and possibly pick up that much needed PG like Eric Bledsoe or Brandon Knight, maybe a talented big like John Henson or Mason Plumlee develop and we can make a big deal moving Smooth or Horf. The lottery isn’t exactly a bad thing. We are missing that one dynamic piece all past champions have had except one (a Hall of Fame talent), and we are not likely to pick that up in free agency, we don’t have one now on the roster, and the most often place you can find one is the lottery. Say we fall back for one year, who’s to say we don’t luck out like the Spurs with Duncan, or the Magic when they got the #1 to pair with Shaq.
by Mr. Sanchez on Mar 18, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
before this game
the hawks lost 23 times with joe starting. so how do you figure that out?
The Hawks already have enough offense to replace Joe, and if they don’t re-sign him, they will use some of that money to get another SG to back up Crawford. It isn’t Joe or nobody; it’s Joe or some somewhat lesser SG. They would miss Joe’s defense as last night showed, but with Horford, Josh, Marvin, Bibby, Crawford, Zaza, and Teague all under contract, there’s still more than enough talent there to be one of the top 5 teams in the East.
You must be kidding about Hawks won't miss JJ
i don’t believe the loss last night was because of JJ being there or not. It is not about him, we should have won the game regardless. Jamal more than did the job last night. Yes Marvin went into Zombie land. But we should have still won. But you can not simply discount the value of a 4 time All star and say Jamal and some shooting guard can fill in.
You say we have enough offense without JJ? That is only assuming Jamal plays like he did last night, and a declining Bibster can continue his recent trend of good shooting. Otherwise, we don’t have consistent offence.
Jamal as great as he is, is not a all star, because he has not always been consistent. So first thing you lose is consistency. Jamal is an amazing scorer in bunches and as fluid a dancer with ball as we have in NBA, but there are times he is MIA. Also, when you watch JJ, he punishes the opposing shooting guards by taking it inside, and does rebounding. Do not discount those things. Of-course you already mentioned his superior defense to Jamal.
JJ has virtually no weakness in his game, why other teams love him. He holds on to the ball too much, which can be improved on by having a penetrating point guard give him the ball in the right place. Also, how about his assist numbers?
I am not saying JJ can not be replaced by some good pick-ups, in fact when there was talk of trading him for a good point guard on some of these posts, if we can not keep him, i am for it. But it is not going to be easy to replace him. Only time will tell. Problem also is cheap ownership may not try and get quality we need for him.
Lets try to find some middle ground
I don’t think the even-minded of us here are implying that JJ would not be entirely missed. Yes, he does provide sound defense and some other things such as rebounding and a very nice assist ratio, but his consistency as it relates to scoring is just questionable just as much as JC if not more. JJ all but disappeared in the playoffs last year and he has had some strings of scoring issues for the last two years, so it’s not like he is a bastion of consistency himself.
I think the main point is that there are other SGs in the league right now that provide the same amount of numbers that JJ does and do it for less money. Which, while we are mentioning that, it would only play into your assertion that our ownership is cheap, allowing them to cut salary while maintaining a reasonable amount of JJ’s production. In fact, we are over the cap now, so I fail to see how that makes this ownership cheap. Even if you don’t think that qualifies, then simply look at all of the resigning of players this offseason. Amid massive losses this ownership is still doing what they believe to be what is needed to stay competitive and keep this team in the playoffs. This organization isn’t the Clippers by any stretch.
Jamal has consistently been an efficient scorer, even when you take out this year. The offensive production would not drop off that much going from JJ to JC at the 2. But even if you didn’t want to keep JC, there are others out there that can provide close to the same level of production as JJ does now. If we could up the production from the PG position and the SF position, that alone would make up for the difference. Or, like most of us here believe we should do, we could simply run the offense through the front court and let Horford and Smith become the beasts we all know they could be.
Sure, straight up, there would be some drop-off, but things are never one for one in the NBA. We have to think about who the coach would be, what system would a new coach run, what other players would be considered, etc.
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
We have a philosophical difference
You think the current cheap ownership has limitations, and I should respect that. My position is they bought into this, so they have to ride it to the end, or sell us to someone like Arthur Blank.
I want to put pressure on this ownership to build on top of what we have, not allow them to get rid of key players that are our building blocks. We need to add a defensive center, and we need to add a point guard depending on rookie’s maturation. We should not get rid of our all star. So instead of me feeling sorry for this group, I want to drive them to keep our key players, and add. Again, we have talked about this before, they bought into this ownership thing, so they have to stand the heat of success.
As for JJ’s value relative to Jamal, I am not putting down Jamal in any way, shape or form. I just don’t think he is the same level of player. Don’t ask me, look at how many teams are lining up to sign him to a max salary? Ask Chicago, ask NY, ask any commentator that puts him in the top 5 max type money players out there
I appreciate you agreeing there will be a fall-off from JJ to someone else, how much….
JJ has had an over 20 point a game rate of scoring in last 5 years, how can you say he is not consistent? What measurement are you using? As for playoffs, was he not the main reason we made playoffs in the first place last 2 years? Adding Bibbster and Lion made it all click, but without JJ, does anyone think this team would even have gotten to playoffs in years past? How about beating Miami on his own in the last game with 40 foot jumpers? Is that not a worthy performance? Again, if he is not world class, why are other teams willing to pay max money to him? Is any one going to pay max to Jamal?
My biggest fear, is that once we lose JJ, then we get nothing equivalent, and we lose the strength of having a combo such as Jamal and JJ. That is our biggest weapon.
Our big men are maturing, but are not complete. Lion will have problems against big strong centers, because he is playing out of position. There will be nights he will shine, there will nights he will always struggle. Smoove, does not "YET" have a go to move. So until I see a go to move from Smoove, I can not just depend on my big men.
Why do the Hawks need a defensive center? Aside from Howard who is the best center in the league, what other center does Horford not guard competently?
Just this year
Duncan comes to mind. The beast from Washington who Dallas stole comes to mind. Even Shaq comes to mind. Clearly in Cleveland, Chesseburger had to be called into action, because Lion could not defend an old Shaq
honestly a lot of guys can't guard shaq one on one
but taller skilled centers give horford trouble like the lakers gasol and bynum
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
And Shaq is retiring
Duncan is on the decline and we don’t face him often enough for it matter. Horford is fine.
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
Ok, that's all relatively fair
Yes, the ownership did buy into the NBA, I get that point of view, but that was six years ago and it doesn’t change the fact that they are for some reason losing 25-30mil a year on this team alone, not to mention the ~25mil they are losing a year on the Thrashers. Something clearly isn’t working within their business model across those two franchises and the rights to Phillips, and no matter which way you slice it, that has a direct affect on their ability to spend money on player salaries. My only point is that even with those struggles they have shown over the last two years that they are willing to pay to keep this team competitive. But, the ownership isn’t the debate right now, so let’s save that one for later.
I also don’t think that JC is the complete player that JJ is. Offensively, I think he is closer than some want to acknowledge, they just go about getting their points in different ways. JJ is a finesse player whereas JC is a blunt force shooter. Both have range, both can drive and finish, one just happens to play defense while the other trys to play defense. The assists are close to a wash imo, and while JJ’s rebounding is nice, he really shouldn’t have to be in a position to do that often if our bigs were always in a position to do it for him.
As for the numbers, this is were stats will get you. Per game metrics do not show consistency except for the amount of time you happen to be relating them. If I pull both players up side by side and look at their yearly per game numbers, then I could easily say that JC is just as consistent as JJ. However, within each year they both go through stretches of games where they just can’t seem to find their shot. It hasn’t happened as much this year with JJ, but the last two years there were many posts lamenting this exact thing.
Last year I don’t think we make the playoffs without JJ, but that’s just saying that we wouldn’t have any replacement for him as if he just simply didn’t exist, and that’s not the case at all. He completely disappeared in the playoffs last year except for a few moments. The point is that both JJ and JC have their moments, for better and for worse.
And the money, just because someone is willing to overpay for a player that doesn’t mean that player is an elite player. A players worth is not equilavent to their salary or vice versa. JC’s performance this year is right with JJ’s, but that doesn’t mean we should offer JC a max deal does it? I think not.
I don’t think anyone here is without some trepidation of a future without JJ, but I don’t think that a future with JJ would be the end of our recent success. JJ undoubtably helped build this team to where it is now, but this is your Hawks of six years ago, or even three years ago. This team has much more talent and more importantly, it has much more confidence that they can compete with anyone in the league. This team has grown into so much more than what it used to be and they have done that without constant fiddling and rebuilding. Sometimes though, one must shed something that used to identify oneself to take that next step in progression.
My fear is that if we handcuff ourselves to an aging star that we will end up like the Spurs are now and miss our small window of opportunity with the current batch of young stars. Every team will continue to attempt to get better. Some will fail, some will succeed. I want to succeed.
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
Age vs. Age
There is old and then there is old.
D- wade at 29 will be old. Because of his style of play. Because of wear and tear. JJ is old school, with 1001 moves inside and out. But never really putting too much pressure on the old body. Because of that I don’t think he is old.
He is out now, i wonder how much of it is Woody imitating his twin in Cavs coach keeping King out for a few games.
As for JJ and Jamal, they are both great. But while Jamal attacks with speed of light, and scores, JJ will torture the opponent inside. Normally the defensive guy assigned to JJ, will really be hurting by end of game, because JJ can take them inside and punish them. JJ is also getting better at slapping the opponents (example Chicago) and not getting called for it. It is called respect. It is called OLD SCHOOL but not being old. There is a difference most people ignore.
Last item, falls under intangibles. JJ brings quiet leadership to Hawks. By example, by staying and practicing, by work ethic. Things that Smoove referred to recently as quiet leadership. That you can not put value on. While all players enjoy Jamal’s effervescence, it is that certain level of leadership, that comes with not just being a all star, but a starting all star (admittedly one chosen by coach in place of a never should have been Iverson) that other players league over look towards.
There is so much i can go on about JJ’s virtues, and value to this organization, but i stop. I think we agree on most points but disagree on outcome.
It is called merit system
You don’t pay a rookie Max contract. You pay a veteran max contract based on their proven performance. Is that not how it works?
NO!
You give max contracts to people who deserve max contracts. A person you think can take your team at least to the doorstep of a championship. Joe is a good, not great player. He’s like Bosh. If they’re they best player on your team, you’re probably not winning a championship. Look at the history of bad max contracts. Joe is not worth a 6 year contract at 16 or 17 mil per. He’s just not!
@cocoqt81
So based on that reasoning
We have to believe other teams think JJ will take them to the doorsteps of a championship. Why else would they want to sign him to a max? Except it seems like in his hometown team, people see his downside more than his upside.
I wonder if Celtics would think the same about Pierce?
or Dallas thinks the same about Dirk?
That is the difference, you build no top of what you have. There is no player, not even the Great Kobe than can win a championship by himself. Nor the king. You build with FEW quality great players.
Max is what is worth it to you to get to a championship. With JJ, and some of our other key players, and tinkering, we get there. To me JJ is the centerpiece.
You rather get rid of the most important piece, and start over.
I gurantee you my approach get you there faster.
Joe is seen as a consolation prize
for the teams that don’t get LeBron or Wade, don’t get it twisted. It’s really easy for you or us to sit here and say pay Joe a max contract because it’s not our money. This would be $16 million REAL dollars to the ATL Spirit. So they’ll invest their money wisely I think. Like I said, IF Joe’s asking price is reasonable, then re-sign him. If it costs more than 15 mil, let him go.
@cocoqt81
I was only telling it to you based on your logic
If it sounds twisted, it is because your logic was unreasonable.
Who came up with 15M as the limit? It is what old Sund offered. If you agree with him, that is your limit and his.
I believe you sweeten the pie slightly say to 16M for 4 years or 5 years, and see what reachtion you get. Six years is unreasonalble.
Also I agree, I would put Lebron and Wade ahead of JJ, no disagreement there, that does not mean JJ is not Max.
You're either a max player or you aren't
Joe is not. $15 is what they offered this summer which is very reasonable all things considered. Joe is not $6 million better than the second best/most important player on the team. I’m sorry but he isn’t. If Joe had shown any signs that he trusts his teammates more this season, I’d be more inclined to over-pay him, but he hasn’t. I don’t want to watch us lose games because we favor jump shots instead of post play when there are 3 qtrs worth of evidence that suggests the post play is the way to go and etc. If they’re going to invest that kind of money and years in Joe, there needs to be a reason to believe he will defer to his teammates when they have it going. I’ve not seen any proof that he’s willing to do that. I don’t know if it’s just because he’s in a contract year, or if he’s just not willing to do it. I just know I haven’t seen it.
@cocoqt81
Well clearly he is a max player
In eyes of other teams, and all NBA analysts i hear and watch. He is not in your eyes, or eyes of people that are not willing to admit to his strengths. Also, clearly in the eyes of fans in ATL, he is max, all you need to do is watch how many number 2 jerseys we see at Phillips. Do not discount being a role model, consistency, good guy, great player, that easily.
I agree with you he is not necessarily sharing the ball at times (though note he has a good assist total). That is a function of two things. Better coaching, and a point guard that gives him the ball in positions he can shoot.
Give him the ball 30 feet from the basket, and ask him to do something with it, when we need a basket and you get what you get.
I think more than anything, we need a balanced team. Strength is balance, between front line and back line. All I want, is to build on top of what we have, as opposed to go to open market looking for players to build from.
It is called tinkering, as opposed to replacing 20+ points a game.
So you wanna pay Joe max money because he's a nice guy
and a good role model. I’m sorry, but I’m more concerned about his basketball abilities. I don’t see where he’s clearly a max player. If we’re just paying nice guys that the fans like then sign Mario and Za Za up for a max contract right now. The things they’re good at, they do pretty consistently too. If Joe is clearly a max player then he’d be mentioned alongside the Wade’s and LeBron’s and Kobe’s of the world, not after them. There’s nothing wrong with being very good, which is what he is. Good not great. Big money, not max money. And where you say we’re unwilling to acknowledge his strengths I’ll say you’re unwilling to acknowledge his weaknesses. And it all goes back to the fear of the unknown that many Hawks fans have.
@cocoqt81
At the end of the day ATLPaul
you and I will not agree about Joe’s worth as far as money is concerned. I like Joe as a player and for the right price I’d like him back. That has been my stance and will continue to be. I’m not afraid of change, sometimes you have to force the issue and make things happen. So, we’ll just have to agree to disagree about Joe and his contract and whether or not he’s a max player. No need in going around in circles :P Again. lol
@cocoqt81
Good points
Discussion is always healthy – different points of opinon exist. We may disagree
I don’t want to give up on my superstar, and being nice, and role model, and great player are all attributes for Max.
No he is not Kobe, or Wade, or King or monster in Orlando. But that does not mean he is not max money material.
Aside from butting in.....
but there are loads of evidence that Joe passes more than his teammates. Whether they hit their shots is up to them. Josh and Al don’t consistently get the ball deep enough in the post to warrant a lot of touches. I’m not saying they don’t need the ball, I’m saying they need more work. Josh especially because he hangs out too much on the wings which is a detriment to Horford and the team.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
What happens with a different coach?
And we wouldn’t care about the lack of passing if he learned to get to the line in those situations.
INCENTIVE in contract.****
You're right about the contact
Unfortunately, I think he’d rather avoid it. I’d like to think all of our problems would be cured with a different coach. :) I do think Joe and Woody need to be separated.
@cocoqt81
I see it as a reason to keep him around.
Because I think the market will not be as gigantic as expected because of the economy, and he is not getting what he thinks he is.
And he has no control over who the coach is.
I think Joe likes Woody
and the fact that the offense runs through him and he can do whatever the hell he wants whenever the hell he wants even if it’s detrimental to the team’s success. The next time you see Woody check Joe will be the first time. What player wouldn’t love that?
@cocoqt81
if this does happen
the Hawks have to keep him. they have to play hardball and they have to keep him.
I still think some teams are going to get scared. something like eight teams have max money available. at least five of those guys are going to want to come away with something.
but if i am wrong, get Joe back. letting him walk to a three year deal somewhere else will look and be terrible.
If it's only a 3 year deal
They can pay him whatever they want and I’d be fine with it. His agent wants a 6 year deal so 3 is not happening, but I’d be so on board if that were possible, even if it cost them $20 mil per.
@cocoqt81
I believe
honestly, nobody would want to pay a player max dollars on a playoff team. Even if Lebron or Kobe or Wade want to come here it would be crippling a playoff team’s payroll. Now, the reason you would pay a player a “max contract” is because they are “a special talent” i guess
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
I can buy
Jamal and JJ being close on offense. But the lack of Jamal’s defense, assists and rebounds add up to huge. Jamal is not close to overall skill. Some trepidation is a good way of describing our fear of losing JJ or handcuffing ourselves to an aging star for 6 years. Both points are valid.
If we could trade Bibby and JJ for a Rose/Rondo type PG is one option. Getting JJ to sign to 1-2 years at max considering the new CBA rules comeing in 2012. Being handcuffed to salary is as important as JJ’s age.
This idea will not popular but maybe the time to trade JJ and Jamal is when their value is high. Not 3-5 years from now. To get value you have to give up value. I like the idea of going with talented youth that trading JJ and Jamal could provide.
by RivBoatGambler on Mar 19, 2010 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe
But the drop-off in assists really isn’t that big of a deal. Looking at this year alone, it may seem ike it’s a huge drop-off, but you also have to consider that JJ is averaging almost 8-9 more minutes per game than JC. Take a step back and look at their career averages and you can see that 0.4 assists really isn’t anything to fret over. Even in ppg you are only talking about two points difference.
And that’s simply looking at the per game numbers. Looking at the per 36min numbers and they are even closer in rebounds, assists, and points. Really, the more I look at the numbers across both their careers, the more I find that the differences between JJ and JC are mainly the style in which they accumulate their numbers and not so much the numbers themselves.
I’d even venture to say that the rebounding numbers aren’t that big of a deal because it’s a system issue that has our guards playing down low and our front court hanging out around the 3pt line.
Frankly, if JJ is gonna walk I’d much rather attempt to get something in return. I’d like to keep JC, upgrade the PG position, and build and upgrade the depth at both positions.
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
the only difference is that
Joe has averaged more assists over the course of his career than Crawford, and when you consider assists you have to consider what teammates were around him making shots.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
yes, I noted that
But it’s still only a difference of about one or two. To me, that’s not a deal breaker.
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
Let’s say the Hawks do a sign-and-trade or sign a free agent to replace Joe who can score, say, 16 ppg. Are you seriously telling me between Marvin, Josh, Al, Teague, and Bibby they can’t cover the other 5 ppg Joe would have given them? Also you are assuming Joe will stay at his current level forever and ever, but history shows players with his age and usage often see their abilities fall off a cliff suddenly around Joe’s age.
You are asking me about "what if"
What if we can sign Collison and give up JJ? I go for it.
What is we get Kurt Hairlick for JJ, No Way
What about Ray Allen, NO FREAKING WAY
What about Rudy Gay? Tough answer, but I say no
My point is, it is hard to answer that question, until I know who we are going to sign. And my biggest fear, this ownership will not necessarily pay for even a solid 16 points a game player. I don’t want to see us trying to get rid of our all star for a mediocre player. We have some of those already.
Marvin adding value depends on what side of bed he wakes up from.? This morning, i would trade him, ask me tomorrow. Rookie, so much unknown. Bibster, natural decline has started. Smoove and Al, I agree will still grow and add value, but that is where i think with JJ, we can have the foundations for a championship team, as opposed to middle of the road without him or some mediocre replacement
What if we can sign Collison and give up JJ? I go for it.
by RivBoatGambler on Mar 19, 2010 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions
agreed – youth and talent is the only way to go. Collison, Curry, Rose, Rondo, CP3, Williams, Evans etc all fit the bill. Their cheap salary or potential or youth is the key.
by RivBoatGambler on Mar 19, 2010 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
So you agree with yourself? Interesting...
and we can’t sign Collison. As a recent draft pick, NO has control over him for the next couple years. Also, several of those you mention—Paul, Rose, Evans, Williams (I assume Deron), Curry, aren’t about to be dealt. Their teams know they have the creme de la creme of PGs and aren’t going to part with them for anything other than a similar young, dynamic building block.
by Mr. Sanchez on Mar 19, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
the Hawks scored 105 points
last night’s issue was defense. an average performance by Josh or Marvin could have made up for it. So clearly offense was not the issue.
this comment was to no one in particular just wanted to throw it out there.
Focus was an issue
and it cost them on defense time and again and on offense late in the game. They have to be disciplined enough to always get back on defense, to always box out on the glass, and to always have good possessions on offense.
by The Human Highlight Blog on Mar 18, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
This
is why you can’t count on this team. They like the fire and desire to win and crush teams like the Clevelands, Bostons, and Orlandos. Josh Smith showed no effort to box out on that last free throw attempt and it cost them. He had his hands on his knees expecting Hedu to make it. This team has been mediocre since the break.
by BravesFanScout on Mar 18, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Pot meet Kettle
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
by Jesse28 on Mar 18, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, so I've heard, but what you see is what you get with me girl
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
Haha, back atcha!
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
ISO Jamal
Cost us the game if he had passed the ball instead of ball hogging down the stretch we would have won
i don't remember one iso Jamal the whole game
and he passed the ball on the last meaningful possession helping to create the Josh Smith runner.
jamal certainly took quick shots, but none of them were isolation. unless i am forgetting one.
I think he did go ISO once or twice
But I wouldn’t necessarily say that they are the cause of the loss. I mean, JC had 30+ last night and was on fire the night before, so why wouldn’t you want the ball in his hands? We were just talking about that go-to guy and while JC can surely be streaky, the guy makes plenty of big shots and buzzer beaters. I’m definitely not opposed to running game-winning plays for him.
The only true item one could complain about offensively last night was the fact that this team is much better when the ball runs through the post and they went away from that in the end. I still wouldn’t out the loss on the offense when there are many moer issues defensively, with effort, and with control (i.e. the two techs). If anyone wants to find blame, I would suggest starting with those before the offense.
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
What game were you watching?
Jamal was the reason we didn’t lose by 20 points. Jeez!
Bet it hit the rim!
This
30+ last night and almost 30 the night before.
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
Jamal has been in beast mode for the last couple of games.
It’s been a joy to watch.
Bet it hit the rim!
Another 4th quarter collapse
These 4th quarter collapses will be the end of us in the playoffs. We will have a significant lead in the 4th in a crucial playoff game and we will blow it and go on to lose the series. We can not close out in the 4th.
I just completed a survey that was sent out by Hawks.com and they asked questions on what i thought about this team. I replied that i felt like they lacked determination, they do not work hard, and didn’t get a good effort.
This team still, at times, shows flashes of greatness, then they show flashes of the 2004-2005 version of the hawks. In the second half of the season this team has been so inconsistent it is hard to get excited about the playoffs. If they do not figure something out and learn how to close out games and step up then I will not be surprised if they are upset in the first round of the playoffs.
by BravesFanScout on Mar 18, 2010 11:35 AM EDT reply actions
In other news.....
You think that report from the New York Times about the Hawks being for sale is true? Would that change the offseason or free agency?
I put this in because I knew there would be a long crazy debate about JJ again.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
Not sure, but it's definitely interesting to say the least
Assuming that it is true, I can only further assume that any sale pertaining the Hawks would surely go through a long drawn out court battle given the current situation between Belkin and the other owners. The most recent court decision was that the ASG had to basically start over with determining what Belkins share is truly worth so that they could buy him out. I would think that any sale could only be entertained after that is taken care of, or at least would be a major factor in any sale.
All that being the case I would say that it wouldn’t not impact (or at least not much) the offseason or free agency this year since they still have to field a competitive team and they would want to sell it at max value. It’s much like buying a used house or car. Sure, you could buy a wrecked car or a flooded home, but that just mean you have to spend more up-front capital to fix things and get it running smoothly again. A couple of dents or broken windows are much easier to repair. And if you are selling, you want to get the most value possible, dents and broken windows included. By not cleaning it up and maybe adding a few things to help increase that value, you are only hurting yourself.
I know, that’s one long-winded analogy, but it works.
Short answer: No, I don’t think a potential sale would impact the management performing their due diligence in the offseason and free agency.
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
umm off topic but
is jj always hurting his right achilles? That was the same problem in the playoffs last year if im not mistaken and earlier this year. Is he aggravting an old injury? Or has it not had time to heal? This worries me…..
IF YOU CANT ACCEPT LOSING, YOU CANT WIN.
Funny
To make light of the lose, I enjoy reading the blog to see what stupid thing truthspitter will say.
Chicken Little
The comments are hilarious, how about some perspective. Its an 82 game season, the Hawks are likely 3rd, possibly 4th seed, with 15 games to go. Stop panicking, the Hawks aren’t, why are you?
You are so right.
Repeated recent fourth-quarter collapses and the inability to compete with Cleveland and Orlando should not trouble ANYONE.
ummm
The Hawks laid 146 on the Raptors earlier this season and it didn’t make a lick of difference against the Cavs or Magic back then. Playing average ball at best the Hawks will win 50 games, and most likely be 3rd seed. They’ll beat some lesser team in the first round, then go on to lose in 5 against the Cavs or Magic. I would be SHOCKED if it turned out different.
So as far as you're concerned, that is...
what? The greatest Hawks season in history? A monumentally fantastic three-game improvement? An incredible seeding based primarily on Boston’s faltering status more than the Hawks’ improvement? A predictable outcome based on the 19-6 start that included the big wins over Toronto you mention?
Do you have a rationale for why it is ok to beat the tar out of teams early in the year and then either a. struggle or b. coast the rest of the year?
Why would you accept either?
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