Enough with the recaps, we have a Hawks bench to deal with around here.
by hawksdawgs on Feb 25, 2010 9:42 AM EST
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PrintJosh Smith was great. The bench was not. Al Horford was surprisingly not.The Hawks won. They were expected to win. This is one of eighty two games that will go into the Hawks record. Can I add more analysis? Probably, but it is going to be the same thing I wrote for some other game with different words. If you were coming here today expecting a recap to end all recaps, I apologize. Not because I mean it, but just because I should have a recap up. Good news though, for an excellent recap full of quotes, go over to the Human Highlight Blog.
The bigger area for conversation this morning goes far beyond one victory against the Minnesota Timberwolves, and that is the Atlanta Hawks bench. Outside of slightly miraculous decision by both Zydrunas Ilgauskas and the Atlanta Spirit, the Hawks are who they are for the rest of the season. The time to complain about personnel is over. The time to problem solve has begun.
The days of bringing in the entire five man second unit are clearly gone. Granted, those days lasted about two weeks in November, but I am no longer clamoring for bench usage like I once was. Last nights' game one thing abundantly clear that was generously clear before, the Hawks just don't have great depth. It might be better than it has been at any time in the last decade, but that is like saying someone just experienced the best groin pull of their life. Neither is overly comforting.
Still, the Atlanta bench is far from useless, even outside Jamal Crawford (who any team in the league would want coming off their bench), Mo Evans can hit the three pointer, run the floor, and play adequate defense. Zaza and Joe Smith are well above average offensive rebounders. Jeff Teague plays decent on the ball defense against point guards and can get in the lane at will and push the pace even if he doesn't know what to do after that initial skill is complete. The Hawks have decent pieces, just put together as a five man unit they are decidedly average and seem to work together to be decidedly bad.
The bigger question going forward is not whether Mike Woodson should use at least an eight man bench. He should. He has to. Night in and night games where starters push 40 minutes will not end well. No, the bigger question is how to combine the bench pieces with the starters. What are the best lineups to maximize the skills and minimize the weaknesses?
Should Marvin play more with second unit players? Should Jamal and Bibby play at the same time? What bench front court player pairs best with Al or Josh? Maybe let Joe Johnson run the Joe show with the four best rebounders on the team? Which starters would benefit most from Teague and would those same people be the best at hiding his rookie deficiencies? Lots of questions. Lots of combination. So what say you? What are some different lineups you would like to see out on the floor? Mario West and Jason Collins are certainly allowed, but tread carefully to avoid mockery. Actually, Jason Collins is not allowed.
Go Hawks!
******Update*******
Want to actually use stats? Go to Basketball Values. Good stuff. (HT Bronn)
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I think that your view is being skewed because of how poorly Jamal and Zaza have played
since the break. I am not sure if Jamal is hurt worse than we thought, but he has not been the same guy since the break.
One positive on that front, however, is that Jamal somehow managed to be a +1 last night while going 0-7 from the field and scoring only one point in 29 minutes. I am trying to look at that as a positive.
We have seen what Zaza can provide over the last 3 years. Maybe the restaurant is not doing well and he is stressed about it?
We have seen what Joe Smith can do over the last decade. We know what Mo Evans can do.
Seems to me that the entire bench is simply in a funk right now, and I think it might be a function of vacation time plus starting out on the West Coast. After a couple of days back in the routine of things, they will return to normal, which is much better than what they have shown the last few games.
view of what?
my view has nothing to do with how good Jamal is. Or even whether Zaza can contribute. I think they all can and need to contribute. My view is that we don’t a bench that put five guys or even four guys and a starter out there and succeeds.
and since Woody does not have much rhyme or reasons as far as lineups go, I am putting that question out there. What lineups would you like to see?
i am not saying our bench sucks, but that to really use there skill it is going to have to be more than put Jamal in for Marvin and then sometimes use the other guys.
Understood
I just think that the bench looks a lot better when Jamal is hitting shots, which he has not been doing too much of since the shoulder injury.
But if Jamal is the only bench player
capable of production that’s a problem. That’s why I think Marv should move there. As it stands Jamal is the only bench player who’s guaranteed playing time. We never know if we’re going to see Joe or Mo or Teague.
@cocoqt81
And on the 8 man rotation...
I think it should be 9, and Woody should do it like most really good teams do. Quit worrying so much about nightly matchups and set a regular rotation.
Teague will be much more effective if he knows he is coming in with 2:00 left in the 1st quarter every night.
I still cannot figure out how Mo Evans did not play against Golden State? I think Woody simply outthinks himself sometimes, and the best way to alleviate that is to have a set rotation every night.
In no way am I comparing Joe to Jordan, but growing up, watching Bulls games on WGN, everyone knew exactly when Jordan would come out of the game, and when he would come back in.
Woody has got to trust his guys enough to let them go, and in turn, they will play better with the freedom of structure.
the freedom of structure
slighty oxymoronic but slighty not
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
The only thing I know for certain
is I think Marv should come off the bench instead of Mo. Woody needs to find a little more consistency in how he uses the bench too. There are times when I’m not even sure why we signed Joe Smith if he can’t get in the game particularly when we’re being killed on the boards. Right now we’re asking a coach who is not known for making adjustments to make adjustments. Probably not gonna happen. Basically we have to hope Jamal is able to maintain his stellar play while hoping the rest of the bench doesn’t play us out of games, like they tried to in the 4th quarter. But I certainly don’t think the coach should use all the bench players at the same time. He clearly feels differently.
@cocoqt81
Big Z or No Big Z
Woodson wouldn’t know what to do with him, he is confused w/ what he has to work with now!
my rep almost made me cry last night
when he told me season tkt prices were increasing, hell they can’t sell the arena out now, & they are increasing the prices damn!
I don't have a profile pic, I'll get on that
and I clearly missed your @ reply I’ll go check it. lol Hope it wasn’t urgent.
@cocoqt81
suppose
“They were suppose to win.” Learn how to write English and how to use “suppose” properly. C-
-your 2nd grade English teacher
Rotation
My biggest problem with the rotation was bibby getting so many more minutes than Marvin. I think Marvin is entering “in the dog house” territory with woody or something.
I would be fine with Bibby being in the game
late if he were contributing offensively, but he hasn’t been so there’s no justifiable reason for having him in the game instead of Marv. It makes no sense to have Jamal and Bibby both in during a close game when you need a stop and or a rebound.
@cocoqt81
Could Josh Smith finally be growing into that team leader...
and superstar player? That would be a big boost going forward (maybe even bigger than Woody actually trusting Teague with over 10 minutes a night and Teague taking over as PG next year and beyond).
And I’m hoping Ilgauskas doesn’t go back home to the Cavs crowded frontcourt. I think he’d be a great compliment to Horford and Smooth whenever either needed a breather. Then, it’d be a primarily 7 man rotation, with Bibby, Crawford, Johnson, and Marvin splitting time at 1-3, Smooth, Horf, and Ziggy at the 4/5, and then Teague, Mo, Joe Smith, and Zaza sprinkled in as needed.
i will throw out some lineups I would like to see explored
teague, jamal, marvin, josh, and al.
bibby, mo, marvin, josh, al
jamal, joe, marvin or mo, joe smith and al.
teague, joe, mo evans, josh smith, and zaza.
jamal, mo evans, marvin, josh and al.
i see a mo evans theme
I didn’t see a Teague, Jamal, Joe, Josh, and AL combo which I think would work well with fast breaks and perimeter defense. All of those guys are superior passers but only three should take contested jump shots.
Now, the teague, jamal, Marvin, Josh and Al combo should work well to spell the backcourt and give teague some assist opportunities with threes in the corner by Jamal and Marv, and feed the front court.
Bibby, Mo, Marvin, Josh and AL could be problematic because all love to jump shoot since driving to the basket is not their forte. But with Bibby on the floor, if they play good defense and get a long rebound, he can push the tempo by throwing the ball ahead to people on the break.
Jamal, Joe, Marvin, Joe Smith, and AL first. This would work only if three of these guys don’t play perimeter namely Marvin. Marvin should play more Mid range in this line up so Joe and Al won’t work so hard getting rebounds.
-Jamal, Mo, Joe, Joe Smith, and Al. Again if three guys play mid-range sometimes then it would be effective. All guys are very experienced defenders (Jamal…I guess him too) good for critical possesions.
Jamal, Mo, Marvin, Josh, and AL Hopefully positions one through three will feed the post instead of chucking jump shots.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
oh
the teague, Joe, mo, Josh, and Zaza to me should never happen because it just breeds ISO-JOe
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
true. already talking myself out it.
but Joe is going to have to relearn how to work with a drive and kick point guard at some point if he resigns with the Hawks.
the fact that we would sign Joe to a huge long term contract and have no idea if our hopeful future point guard can play with him seems like a bad idea.
i should have explained them
1. the running lineup with good enough interior defense to deal with any front court issues.
2. three point shooters to open up for the front court with an ability for Marvin to get more shots because Jamal and Joe are out.
3. better defense than the jamal, bibby, joe lineup. i like the idea of joe smith and al being able to sit 14 feet from the basket to hit jumpers and open up lanes to drive.
4. i just want to see Teague play along side Joe.
5. no idea.
All of those lineups are good.
The only problem is Al and Josh are human. To bad they can’t play 48 min.
by RivBoatGambler on Feb 26, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
Lineups I Like:
-Teague, Jamal, Marvin, Mo, Zaza…..Gives us more guys that can score on the second unit
-Teague, Jamal, Mo, Joe Smith, Randolph Morris… I’d like to see R.Morris get a shot. He’s got a nice offensive game and would give us some post scoring with the second unit
-Jamal, Mo, Marvin, Al, Zaza…. Gives Horford the opportunity to play the 4. The second unit would be putting up some nice offensive numbers.
- Bibby, Jamal, Mo, Al, Randolph… Another opportunity for Al to play the 4 and it might be interesting to see how him and Randolph work together.
That’s all i’ve got so far. I wouldn’t mind seeing Marvin run with the second unit. I’d like to see Randolph get an opportunity in some games, and i’d like to see Al get some time with our other bigs so he can slip to the 4 position.
by BravesFanScout on Feb 25, 2010 12:11 PM EST reply actions
My Fantasy Lineup
Teague at the point, J-Craw at shooting guard, JJ at small forward, Smoove at power, Boss at center-quickness, deadly shooters, rebounding, shot blocking, dunking- the best lineup for the running game??
I'd say so
I wonder if that line-up was ever on the floor this year
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
What I like about Marvin
is he can be placed in a lineup with anyone because he doesn’t like to dominate the ball and has a team first mentality. But Marvin perhaps would flourish at the six man spot after Jamal wins it this season. Of course Jamal should be inserted at the shooting guard spot and move Joe to small forward, josh power forward and Al still at center. Of course Bibby is still the point.
by DPhenomenal1 on Feb 25, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
I’m just not sure about this. Marvin is our best man defender, and he should be getting more minutes than any of the back-ups. The problem is often that Jamal Crawford is on the court while struggling with his shot, like last night, when he’s a non-factor on defense. The same is true of Mike Bibby, who has been struggling with his shot for two months, now, and there’s plenty of times Marvin is sitting when Bibby is failing to contribute anything on either end.
If nothing else, I think Marvin needs more minutes, not a 6th man role. We struggle to guard opposing SFs as it is, and no one comes close to guarding the position as well as Marv.
this is what I find so interesting
for all Woody’s emphasis on defense, he creates lineups that are dictated by offense.
and since Marvin neither has the personal or external motivation to help very much on offense, he sits.
from woody’s perspective, I don’t get it.
Perhaps
his emphasis on defense is blinding him to the fact that maybe just maybe he is more of an offensive coach. But just hasn’t realized it yet?
by DPhenomenal1 on Feb 25, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
Okay!
I was thinking more about his offensive game, well as least upping his points scored. I’ve often felt during this season that Marvin should have played more minutes also. Well whatever works best. I don’t really have any strong feelings about whether he should start or not. I want what works best for Marvin and the team.
by DPhenomenal1 on Feb 25, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, for about 12 minutes
http://basketballvalue.com/player.php?year=2009-2010&id=806
That line-up has outscored opponents 34-22
Aren't you curious to see
what these guys can do? It might work against the Nets. Maybe???
by DPhenomenal1 on Feb 25, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
let's play that during a 30 to 40 point blowout
So there’s a way to explain the lack of speed anywhere except point
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
My Guards Galore Lineup
Teague, Bibby, Joe, Jamal, and Mo- to see the importance of the front court. Can guards get it done without bigs. hmmmm
reminds me of pick-up
which i haven’t played in a few months
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
My Lookout Here Come the Bigs Lineup
Josh at the point, Marvin at shooting guard, Randolph at small forward, Al at power forward, and Jason/Zaza at center. Scary!
How about
let Josh and Al just go for it themselves. Those guys got a chemistry that just awesome to watch most of the time. Okay I know it’s not doable. Boy Mike Woodson should be having fun. Changing up the lineup seems like so much fun.
by DPhenomenal1 on Feb 25, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
yeah but a method of success is hard
This is why coaching in the NBA is hard. New found respect for Woodson?
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
Right
coaching seems like a stressful job. Got to respect Coach Woodson for stepping up to the plate.
by DPhenomenal1 on Feb 25, 2010 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
the teague, jamal, marvin, josh, and al line up
is beating teams 23 to 15 in just over 8 whole minutes.
this lineup could take over the world!
Okay that
lineup works for the running game as well. I like that lineup.
by DPhenomenal1 on Feb 25, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
The biggest problem
Is that Horf and Al are so integral to this team’s success, that we inevitably struggle when they’re out of the game. AT least, that’s how I see it, and I think the on/off numbers support this. That is, units that have both Zaza and Horf seem to work pretty well.
http://basketballvalue.com/player.php?year=2009-2010&id=88
Stretches with both guys sitting tend to be pretty disastrous pretty quickly, as you saw at times in the second quarter, and especially in the fourth quarter. So the move needs to be to actually use more of Zaza (I’ve been really unimpressed with Joe Smith this year) and rotate Josh and Al out one at a time. They’re both much better defenders than their replacements, and the back-ups aren’t any kind of a presence on offense, either. Making sure to keep at last one of the two in at all times prevents the frontcourt from being a complete failure.
I agree 100%
The sprinkled effect with ZaZa and Joe Smith to me is a no brainer. They need Starters to hide their weakness.
by RivBoatGambler on Feb 26, 2010 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
But Josh and Al
have to get rested at some point in the game. Oh the dilemma! I agree!
by DPhenomenal1 on Feb 25, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
Rest them one at a time
Here’s how:
Both start the game and play 6 minutes.
Zaza comes alongside Josh for 4 minutes.
Horf comes alongside Zaza for 4 minutes.
Josh comes in to play with Horf another 6 minutes.
Both sit for about 2 minutes.
One of the two comes back for the half’s last 2 minutes.
Both start the second half for 6 minutes.
Zaza and Josh for 4 minutes.
Zaza and Horf for 4 minutes.
Zaza and Joe for 2 minutes.
Horf and Josh play the game’s last 8 minutes.
Both guys average about 36 minutes, but we only get 4 minutes where neither is in the game.
And
if the game isn’t close at the end, both guys can naturally sit, but we want them playing the majority of those 4 quarter minutes together to close the game out.
This plan works if neither guy gets into foul trouble.
by DPhenomenal1 on Feb 25, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
Then you would have
both not on the court together for more than 4 minutes.
by DPhenomenal1 on Feb 25, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
It’s just a general scheme. You can alter it where one guy might play 40 minutes, and the other 30 on a given night, but assuming they both get in foul trouble with similar frequency, they’ll average the same amount of minutes. This, of course, presumes a coach isn’t summarily sitting a man who has 2 fouls in the first half.
Yeah, either Josh is in or AL is
Both need spelling but both are intergral to the teams success
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
Did I read the stats wrong?
Take Josh out and we go to heck.
by RivBoatGambler on Feb 26, 2010 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
http://www.82games.com/0910/0910ATL5.HTM
this just shows we’re below average at pg and sf. I know this is what everyone in here thought but its nice to have numbers to back it up
I like the teague Joe jamal al and smoove lineup
That spells trouble for anyteam though I barely see it. I would also like teague Moe jamal Randmo josh. I would try Randmo out in many lineups just to experiment. He plays better on offense this year than collins. he needs his minutes
by Hawksgirl on Feb 25, 2010 2:58 PM EST via mobile reply actions
amazing stat
In terms of +/- for the best 5 man unit through All-star break, The Hawks players of Al, Josh, Joe, Bibby and Jamal lead the league with a +/- of 20.31. Note: this is no of points scored minus no of points conceeded. That is impressive!
( Got this stat while reading ESPN magazine for march..)
SuperStars Smoove and JJ
great discussions, i can not add to the different combo lineups. and not sure i can speak as intelligently. so…
First i have to digress and say Smoove is beginning to get into that exclusive world of super star performers, where only JJ belongs from the current group of Hawks. So this should make JJ think twice before jumping to another team, because he now has a super star, a young talented one in Smoove that is becoming a monster and the MVP of the team, if not the highest scorer. With that said…
If Bibby brings his good shooting back, we can keep him in the ball game at the end, otherwise, Marvin or Rookie need to be there. Having Jamal and Bibby puts a lot of burden on big three. And yes I must say there must be much more opportunity given to Rookie to play, even though he makes bone headed decisions, I believe any rookie gets a pass for one year for bone headed decisions.
ahhh yes our bench will improve with another big body so much.
Good topic
I gotta say Teague is not ready to play with the starters, Joe and Josh both like ball in there hands and I think he would just basically be a by stander, but I do think he would be really good defensively with the starters. Mo is just fine playing with starters because he can make some opinion shots even more so than Marvin at times. So, I think Marvin should play more with bench, while Jeff and Mo get more minutes with starters. Zaza and Joe Smith play well together even though neither really finishes well and Joe’s jump shot that he has been making his whole career has disappeared this. There’s your solution peasant’s, I’m the King, keep it pimpin, pimpin.
What's an opinion shot?
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
Teague showed some great passing.
The new pick and roll guard? He made it look easy. If he decided to quit shooting and passed that well every game he could find big minutes.
by RivBoatGambler on Feb 26, 2010 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
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