Power Rankings look toward the future, I apologize for starting this fight.
by hawksdawgs on Feb 2, 2010 2:29 PM EST
62 comments
The Hawks have a problem. While they match up extremely well with Boston, they've now lost three double-digit games to Orlando this season and have also been swept by Cleveland. They've been lights-out against bad teams, but are just 1-7 in their last eight games against teams 13 and up on this list not named Boston. SB Nation's Peachtree Hoops is not concerned about such matchup problems, but if I'm a Hawks fan, I am. Atlanta has few tradeable assets to improve their club (more on this tomorrow), and one of their best players, Joe Johnson, is a free agent after the season. As much as Hawks fans want to say they have time to keep getting better, in reality, the time is now, before Johnson potentially bolts.
Perhaps this is just the natural evolution of a franchise. Perhaps. The only problem is that rarely does a franchise evolve while their marquee player faces free agency.
- Letting Joe Johnson go for nothing will be moderately crippling next year and a risky move banking on the draft, future free agency, and ability for Josh Smith and Al Horford to lead the team.
- Signing Joe to max money will be cripplingly financially for years to come.
- Signing Joe to a reasonable deal will officially set the team's course for this segment of its history, will require a greater distribution of the offensive burden for it to be successful, and could lead to the only team oriented contender in the league.
- Signing and trading Joe to another team will be, like number one, risky, but not necessarily crippling for next year.
I think sign and trade is most likely because Atlanta cannot afford to go too far over their summer offer, teams will be looking to shed salary even as they sign salary, and Joe has made it clear he wants max money and a S&T gets him the most money.
All sides are risky. Resigning Joe only works if Al Horford and Josh Smith get better, and they only get better if Joe Johnson and Mike Woodson let them. On the other side of things, if Joe leaves and Al and Josh don't get better, the Hawks are done being even what they are now. Almost contenders.
What I do know is what ever direction they go, the easiest one to maneuver out of if it fails is the one that does not have a max contract weighing it down.
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what are you looking to get out of a sign and trade?
by marvin's ladies of the night on Feb 2, 2010 2:34 PM EST reply actions
7'er, or just valuable pieces
Gs would be nice too as if we lose Joe, we’d be lacking in backcourt depth.
I don't think this Joe thing will be resolved until this summer
In the meantime he will continue to play as if he’s playing for a contract and some nights that will help us, some nights it won’t.
what is wrong with a max deal??
The Hawks can sign Joe to a max and also re- sign Al Horford under the CBA. The only reason the Hawks would not want to sign Joe to a max is if they do not want to go over the cap. Management has not stated that they do not want to go over the cap . infact, management has stated that they do not mind going over the cap if the team is a contender.
Hawksdawgs, please can you explain Point no 2 -how signing Joe to the max will cripple the team in the future?
I think he means that signing JJ for the max deal at this point in his career would not be financially sound move
I think a lot of people think JJ has too many miles on his legs and he’s closing in on 30 rather quickly to warrant such a payday. That’s just my guest from previous posts and comments.
a joe max deal is going to kill the cap
if horford gets a big deal, combined with Josh, Marvin, Zaza, bibby, there is not going to be much left.
Um
This ownership group is frugal and when talking about the Hawks we have to remember that they also own the Thrashers and while I haven’t looked at the books, I’m going to go out on a limb and say they are losing way more money than they are bringing in. If they’re going to go over a cap for a player he’d damn well better prove he can put this team on his back and carry them through the playoffs. Joe does that for a game here or there. Take a step back and look at this move not as a fan, but as you’d look at some other team. Signing Joe to a max contract is the equivalent of signing Gilbert Arenas, Tracy McGrady, Michael Redd or some other marginal superstar player to a max deal. History has shown us where that will get you. In McGrady’s defense he actually could score with the best of them. Anyway, ask yourself if you want the Hawks to hitch their wagon to Joe at the expense of being able to field a competitive team. We know what that team looks like, think back to when Joe first got here. It’s not brain surgery. I want Joe back, but it has to make sense. It just has to.
I think it would be a cold day in hell before Sund decides to ship Joe out before the trade deadline.
Reasons why:
1. They’re winning
2. Until this weekend they were leading the SE Division.
3. Somewhat media darlings right now
4. He wants to retain Joe’s services next year.
5. He doesn’t want to be perceived as the idiot who traded an All Star
Let’s face it. Most people in the NBA think very highly of JJ. They don’t put his game under a microscope like we do. They love him and seem to think he’s going to do pretty well in free agency. I don’t think Sund is going to make any moves before the trade deadline. If he does, I honestly don’t know what will happen. There are too many unknowns. To many, what ifs, would surface. I see him riding this thing out for the rest of the season and making a move in the summer.
Trade Joe?
Are you kidding? Does he need a ride to the airport? He has made it clear that he wants all he can get, and it wont happen here. As we say at the end of a great party, “You aint got to leave, but you got to get the Hell out of here!!”…
Maybe we can package Bibby in the mix?
"If I disagree with you, it's because you are wrong..."
the hawks can pay joe more than any other team
for joe to go somewhere else and get that money, he needs to sign with the Hawks and be traded to that new team
Get Something...
I just hope we get something for him. We traded one superstar before and got squat for him!(Nique)… SIgn and trade or trade now, I am all for it!
"If I disagree with you, it's because you are wrong..."
Poor us fans
We are caught in the middle. Always are. Between management and player demands. The dynamics with a poor economy, and more available great free agents than normal at the end of season is different. Until now I was worried about Chicago, now I am worried about Boston stealing JJ.
Personally, I would not want to see JJ gone. Yes he is not perfect. Is Kobe? Does he shoot too much? Is D-wade and his attitude? most of us as dstdeelite says, put our players under a microscope. Like on a blog recently i saw some Boston fans upset about Perkins, his lack of scoring and shuffling his feet. I am like I take Perkins any day. JJ is a great player, and though has shortcomings when he does not pass the ball around, he otherwise adds so much more with his scoring and quiet leadership. We need to retain him.
I say let’s keep cool about JJ. He be crazy to leave south for where he is the captain of a great team to be, and go to a destination unnknown, and let’s add to the team in other ways. I hope JJ signs. Here is hoping for a great game tonight.
I wouldn't take Perkins as a starter.
Kinda tells you what you need to know about Boston and their woes…Perkins is an offensive liability—he turns the ball over as much as he scores, just about—but he starts in Beantown.
I agree with offensive skills
but right now i am in the stage of life where i love strong big defensive guys for us :)
But in the place of Zaza?...
not that Boston would make that deal, but I would all day. Maybe Ray Allen and Perkins for Zaza, Joe Jo, and a draft pick or two?
The Cletics, actually.
Make ’em say the hard C even if only in the heads for just a second, I say.
The End
I personally will not stick around next year and wish upon a star for a decent team after the team is blown up and yes trading Joe would be blowing team up a lot more than trading Zaza. Enjoy this year then its back to the lottery, good day, looking forward to tonite.
Again,
remove yourself from the situation and look at this move as if it were happening to a team you don’t root for. Would you really say a guy who averages between 20-21 ppg is worth max money? There are about 10 or 11 other players who avg the same thing and no one is talking about them getting max money from anyone. So basically you all want to pay Joe for sentimental reasons. Hey, I get it. Joe came here when no one else would. Whether he came for one reason or $70 million of them, he came. I applaud him. I appreciate him, but moving forward I do not want him to put the franchise in a situation where they can’t afford other quality players.
Good Point.
Never thought about it like that. I like option 3 and its the only way I can see us keeping him.
by happyplayer23 on Feb 2, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
let's put the 15 million dollar Joe in perspective
I don’t know what a Joe Johnson max contract is but here are the top 10 contracts of the nbahttp://sportige.com/2009-2010-biggest-contracts/
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
very true
Scoring is the easiest stat to replace. We need a JJ type without the JJ ball-hogging. Someone in the vein of Rip Hamilton when he was in his prime.
Be careful
as all 21 PPG are not created equally. What Joe does that helps the Hawks more than the sum of his stats is create major mismatches on both sides of the ball that open things up for the other players. The guy is a good passer and he does pass (not enough in the 4th, I know), but Rip Hamilton? Joe is waaayyyy better than Rip ever dreamed of being no matter what the stats say.
How JJ or his replacement affects the team concept has to be figured in. That problem is why Chicago and Detroit have not progressed lately and why Washington has never done squat even with Arenas on the team…but Houston, Memphis, and OKC are winning.
I believe
ever since Joe turned down the contract extention some fans(I ain’t calling no names) have already shipped him off in their minds.
I believe this might be the best team (not trying to jinx us) that this organization will have under the restraints of management. Look at the Braves now. The only guy left from the World Series is Chipper and he’s not an all-star anymore. They have had some good young players in the past but did not retain them. One prime example, Jermaine Dye who was a stud when he played here.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
We is who we is....
This team will be a 48-52 win team, win 1st rd. And then reality will set in. And we can do that with Joe or without him. We just seem to be missing that something that gets us over the top. Every year I watch this team, I get frustrated by Woodson and his coaching. But then I hope for the best, only to be disappointed. Joe is a solid player, but a MAX deal? Really?
Jermaine Dye was a stud, and Elvis Andrus looks solid too in Texas….
"If I disagree with you, it's because you are wrong..."
To be honest, I could care less about should a player get a max deal or not...
Cause if Joe goes and you don’t want another Max player, you would need two good players to offset that. How many games have we won without Joe?
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
But we have a roster going...
Crawford in the backcourt with Bibby and Teague, Marvin at the 3, Smith, Horford and Zaza in the paint. Joe is a great player, but it’s not like we’re the Cavs and he’s LeBron. We have a solid roster, and he is no dynamic superstar force. Save the money on Joe, and can we add a solid perimeter defender AND shotblocking 7’ with the savings? Do that, and add the others remaining, and that roster can be as good, if not better, than with just Joe.
You know for all this talk about Joe
we didnt’ make the playoffs til Al got here. That’s right, yet you all seem to be so willing to throw the checkbook at Joe which would inevitably make it hard to keep Al. Joe is worth what they offered him. He’s not a max player. There isn’t a max player on this Hawks team if we’re being honest. You’re all just nostalgic about Joe. Like I said, I get it.
Well...
And I think Crawford would give us the same thing Joe gives us. Thanks Joe for your years of service, enjoy your signed poster of Nique and don’t forget your sneakers on the way out….And take Woody with you!!!
"If I disagree with you, it's because you are wrong..."
Ooooh good debate
But my thoughts are that jj wouldn’t leave if the team is winning and if he does it will blow up the nucleus. everything will backpack to about 5 years ago. I personally don’t believe he will leave but as a long time hawksfan, I used to didn’t look at jjs game under the microscope til we got al and BIBBY. it showed me that the hawks need him and do well with his leadership and he knows that. reminds me of wade when the heat had a bad season, wade talked but stayed. the difference is that jj isn’t talking.
by Hawksgirl on Feb 2, 2010 4:07 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Before we reconstruct this team, I would love to see what this team would do with a better coach.
A coach who actually gave a damn about offense or at least an OC who did.
I have a bad feeling..
How do you fire a coach that wins 50 games? We might have Woody next year! ( I think I just vomited a little in my mouth) But back to Joe, he is living under the motto of C.R.E.A.M ( Cash Rules Everything Around Me) And if someone gives him the MAX deal, then get it! But unless his last name isnt Wade, James, or Bryant, Atlanta should just say no. We can give him a standing ovation when he comes back with another team like we do our players who move on…well except how we did Glavine in baseball.
"If I disagree with you, it's because you are wrong..."
Sign Joe
I’m not a money person, I figure these are the people who could/should be on the Hawks trading block:
Marvin,
Bibby
Zaza (pains me to say it)
Collins
Morris
People that could make the Hawks better:
Amare
Amare
Amare
Amare
Ummm
Who would trade for Collins, Morris? And if we sign Joe, Amare can’t happen. Not unless we forget about Al and/or Josh…
Work with us here….
"If I disagree with you, it's because you are wrong..."
I tend to agree with the "trade him" camp, BUT...
can we PLEASE enjoy the run we’re having now? How many years did we suffer just to be mentioned among the better teams in the conference?
We should just agree that nothing is being done with Joe mid-season, and re-visit this after we win the championship (or when the playoffs are over).
And tentenlarry, Amare can’t play D for shit and would be a perpetual liability. Him + Bibby = defensive catastrophe. If you sign Joe and get rid of the rest, then you really are back to 2003-4. Oh, wait, I just said we needed to stop this convo. More after the season!
true
but the way i see it, we can probably stand to loose Bibby at this point and let Teague get in some time. I believe he’s gonna be great for the Hawks some day.
I’ve been enjoying these past few seasons (including this one) and I just hope that we can continue to root for a Hawks team that can beat anyone on any given day.
I’m not comfortable with:
-Loosing Joe to another team that is willing to pay him more $,$$$,$$$,$$$
-Banking on Al and Smoove to pick up all of the slack. Joe’s 4th quarters have been crucial to several key wins this season.
haha
well, i just don’t want to see the Hawks lose anyone significant w/o getting something in return.
I keep having this feeling that this years squad will out perform next years squad because of roster moves or lack of roster moves.
the difference now is
Players want to play in ATL now….for a shooter to have Smith and Horford under the glass or a good passing PG to have Smith running with him…..they will come. We are now one of the best teams in the lg so I think JJ wants to stay even if its not max….just close to max
if jj gets resigned it doesn't mean they have to ship zaza(god forbid) or marv
We actually have a bench people! and amare isn’t a true center is he? smoove plays better d than him. but like dchawk said, this conversation isnt important right now. wait til after the playoffs………….another thing, if we make it to the EC Finals then what???? still ship the bench? I hate these trade talks, everything sounds ridiculous to me
by Hawksgirl on Feb 2, 2010 4:54 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Enjoy?
I want to enjoy the run, but being a long time Hawks fan, I want to keep enjoying the runs. I am tired of being good for 2 yrs and bad for 3 yrs. So you can see the frustration and concerns we all have with this JJ pending move. Its a great post hawksdogs, and apology not needed! We are tired of the SSDY (Same Stuff Different Year).
"If I disagree with you, it's because you are wrong..."
I doubt anyone tops the offer the Hawks already made to JJ
Before this season. I seriously mean that. The teams that have the room under the cap to top that offer are going to be going after Bosh, Wade, and LeBron.
I’ve seen some other bloggers post potential deals they could offer JJ, and they’re all very close to the same money we already offered (but usually less). Hawks can probably keep him just because the cap is going to make it prohibitive for other teams to move on him.
No apologies Drew
This is a hot topic everywhere. I can’t help but get the feeling there are certain Hawks fans who feel like we need to reward Joe for coming here in the first place. He’s already been compensated handsomely for that. This next contract should be based more on what can you do for me going forward as opposed to what have you already done for me. I just want the organization to be smart about it. Bring him back, but for the right amount of money.
If we're to think
That Joe isn’t worth at least 17 million a year, then we pretty much view him as everyone else in Atlanta views the hawks. (Only good to see if they’re playing the Lakers, Cavs, or Celtics) If we can say Michael Redd is worth 17, Rachard Lewis 18, Ray Allen and Pierce 19, T-Mac 23 and Jermaine O’neal 22? Joe isn’t worth 16?
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
Maxxj3
you’re missing the point completely. Those are BAD contracts!!!!!! Period. Just because someone was stupid enough to give them that kind of money doesn’t mean the Hawks should follow in their footsteps. It’s as simple as “if all of your friends jump off a bridge does that mean you’re going to do it too?” One would certainly hope not.
No...
you’re missing my point. Joe Johnson’s resume itself warrants a “decent” salary. You would have to want the hawks kicked out of the first or second round to justify not paying him. I’m not saying give him a 100 million dollar contract like Arenas and T-Mac and Rashard Lewis, but the man’s been relatively healthy each year. If we replace him, it would have to be Wade, Bosh or Lebron. If if you want to go cheap you better get a championship coach.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
I'll say it again.
$15 million is more than fair for Joe. Anything above that is too much. Geesh, we act like the boy has been playing for pennies. Joe has been compensated for everything he’s done thus far in Atlanta. He will be paid, but they do not need to hand him a blank check unless he does some otherworldly stuff in the playoffs (which is still a possibility) I want Joe back. I really do, but not at the expense of the future. Like Drew mentioned somewhere else, we act like the window is closing. It just opened, but if they break the bank on Joe the window won’t stay open very long. It’s like everyone has forgotten who is running this team. The Hawks aren’t owned by Dolan or Buss or some other person with an endless amount of money. And, they have a hockey team that they’re practically throwing money away on. Don’t fool yourselves into thinking they can pay Joe whatever he wants and pay Al and tweak the roster with someone who is of quality. I’m just saying, think about the long term affects of the deal. Look at the people you listed and where they are and where the franchise is that gave them that kind of money. With the exception of Paul Pierce (and let’s not kid ourselves, were it not for that monster trade he’d be among those bad contract folks too) Rashard Lewis who happens to be playing with the best center in the League (or East) nothing good has come of those contracts. Nothing.
Brandon Roy!
The only player we can compare to Joe right now is Brandon Roy and he got a max contract. If the Hawks want any continuity, they have to give him the money.
No Brandon Roy
He’s injury prone… that dude can’t play 10 consecutive games without tweaking his ankle or having to undergo surgery.
OMG!!! This kind of talk is so depressing.
I still have yet to hear a reasonable replacement for JJ. Mind you, I’m not saying he can’t be replaced, but I just want to know can replace him.
We already have him
He is our sixth man. JC can easily replace JJ’s scoring.
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
well personally i think this talk is healthy
I mean there are two really strong points of view (i am with keep JJ camp 100%).
Here is what we also should think about, not only the hard core fans that are on this site, but think of the general public in ATL that are finally coming around to paying attention to Hawks. Now what happens if they see the Captain of the team not retained? A huge PR disaster. I know very little about hockey, but on sports talk radio keep hearing about the same depressing talks about Iliya Kovalchuk’s (spelling) contract. And it reminds me of as Co Co says, the constraints we have. Well, instead of burning the money on Thrashers, let’s focus on the Hawks. This is the closest team ATL has to championship caliber, and we need to keep the impression and reality of a cohesive unit intact. Not to mention, JJ is indeed valuable for point production, defense, and assists. Hard to get that combination any where.
No need to apologize, Drew...
I’m not faulting you for bringing it up. I think it is a good discussion.
Joe’s performance last night came at the perfect time in terms of this debate. He could not have had a better statistical shooting night: 37 pts, an insane 65% from the field, 100% FT, 50% from 3. Yet his other numbers were very 2005-6 Kobe-esque: 5 TOs, just 4 Rebs and 3 Asts.
Some stats to consider:
- When Joe scores 28 or more points, the Hawks are 4-6.
- When Joe records 3 or less assists, the Hawks are 8-9.
- When Joe records 7 or more assists, the Hawks are 9-3.
When he is unselfish and doesn’t worry about carrying the team’s scoring load on his back, we succeed. Of course, much of this is attributable to other players not stepping up on particular nights, but the “stats don’t lie.”
let Joe go and sign Chris Bosh
I think we go after Chris in the off season . He makes Josh and Al better . Then move Crawford into the SG position
Bosh...
I would love to have Bosh, but that gives us 3 post players on the floor at once. And Woodson shows very little love to his big men. I would love to see Horford get more touches on the block, but Joe and Crawford give big Al no love…
"If I disagree with you, it's because you are wrong..."
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