On rivalries and Joe Johnson
by hawksdawgs on Jan 12, 2010 9:43 AM EST
44 comments
"We still feel we're the better team," said an exhausted Paul Pierce, who like the rest of a closing unit that included Glen Davis, Rajon Rondo, Ray Allen and Kendrick Perkins, played the last 19 minutes without a substitution by associate coach Tom Thibodeau, who took over for Rivers.
"The year we won the (2008) championship, we lost four times to Washington. It definitely bothered us, but we're a better team, and it will show."
Perkins seconded that emotion.
"It's not like I fear them," he said. "I don't think anyone on this team fears them. They look at us like a rival, but I don't think we look at them as a rivalry team."
Naturally, one less cup of coffee was needed this morning. As a Celtics hater and Hawks fan, these quotes naturally get the blood boiling. But if I was to put my objective hat on for just a second, I think these post game remarks might say a thing or two about both teams. Things that don't involve homerism and emotion and all that stuff makes blogs fun but fluffy.
On the one hand, Perkins is right. The Hawks play different against the Celtics. They refuse to give up in circumstances they normally say "to hell with it." They hit shots we the fans normally say "to hell with it." There is a focus that is rarely see in the other 33 games this season. Call it a rivalry or call it good basketball, but the point is, the Hawks can't think it is ok to play this way only against teams the deem as measuring sticks. The great teams treat every game like a rivalry.
Which leads me back to Paul Pierce. He may be speaking his true feelings. He probably does think the Hawks are a worse team, but during the championship year, losses were not shrugged off with a wait until the playoffs eye roll. Every game mattered. Every game was a rivalry. KG made it so, and it showed. The Celtics ain't there emotionally anymore.
I will be the first to admit I sometimes fling praises or insults on Joe Johnson simply depending on whether he hits the shots. It is lazy fandom, but sometimes hard to avoid. Just listen to Nique, every shot Joe takes is a tough shot, and tough shots are only good shots if they go in.
Still, despite the fact that last nights shot chart looked just as inditing both in the number of dots and where they were, it felt different. From the first make where Joe rhythmically drilled a three pointer, it was clear Joe was on tonight. And even those fourth quarter shots looked less pressed and more authoritatively swished. These were not floaters bouncing around the rim as I prayed to the television for them to go in against four defenders. They were rise up jumpers that were never in doubt.
Joe was assisted on 57% of his makes. Only Josh Smith had a higher percentage. For Joe, that included all three of his makes at the basket. If someone is getting assists for Joe's shots at the rim, we got movement without the basketball ladies and gentleman.
In the end, I know when something is wrong, and sometimes even when it is wrong Joe "freaking" Johnson comes to play and makes it right. But last night was not one of those times. Last night was good basketball. It was taking advantage of a match up and a hot hand.
And whether Boston fears the Hawks or not, they should at least watch some film on Jamal Crawford and Joe Johnson because their non worried defense has not quite done the trick.
Go Hawks!
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Hawks are to Boston as Magic are to Hawks.
Boston’s resistance to letting Rondo do all the driving and scoring—that’s what happens when you have Pierce, Allen, Wallace, and Garnett—and the lack of a dominating center allow the Hawks to be physically superior at all positions. Last night showed what would happen if they cut Rondo loose against the Hawks, in the first half, anyway.
But the Celtics aren’t just emotionally flat, their leaders are old, slow, and infirm. They will finish in the top four but very likely FOURTH just because of games missed by the wheelchair brigade. Then there’ll be an ear;y flame-out in the playoffs for the same reason. There’s why the Cletics are always so good at the start of the year—they’re fresh and no one’s hurt.
If they are going to get anywhere this year they have to give Rondo more freedom to be the offense at times. But what do I know. Cletics fans will be sure to come here and point out how wrong I am…
by rbubp on Jan 12, 2010 9:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'd agree...
getting Garnett healthy is a huge key for them, but outside of that they still need to let Rondo use his quickness more. He may not score, but he can get in the lane and create open looks for Wallace, Pierce, and Allen outside. Those guys are great spot shooters, so let Rondo drive and kick to them waiting on the wings.
by Mr. Sanchez on Jan 12, 2010 10:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But will KG ever be healthy?
This year is starting to become eerily reminiscent of last season regarding KG’s “knee strain.” First, it was, he is alright, be back in a few days. Then it was, he is taking some time to make sure it heals properly. Reports yesterday were that he is now looking at 10-14 more days.
I do not know if the guy is totally shot or what, but it seems something is seriously wrong with his legs. KG only missed 33 games from 95-08(except ’99 when he suffered a season-ender), but he missed 25 last year and has missed 7 already this year.
by Fred Pen on Jan 12, 2010 10:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
His odometer is far too high.
Last year’s injury wasn’t routine (like a sprained ankle or something that just happens), it was his joints becoming more and more worn. He’s going to see a few more of these nagging injuries. Kid’s been in the NBA since he was 19. It happens.
by Duff_Man on Jan 12, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and I can call him "kid" because he's a year younger than me.
by Duff_Man on Jan 12, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Duff Man, I'm impressed...
I didn’t know you old folks knew how to use the interwebs. Does your nurse do all the typing for you? Zing! (I kid! I kid!)
by bradleyjah on Jan 12, 2010 11:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thibodeau left the same lineup in for the last 19 minutes?
how was he one of the “hot names” when NBA teams were looking for coaches?
by Mr. Sanchez on Jan 12, 2010 10:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
as much as i like to hate on the simplicty of woody's mistakes
coaching is not for the dumb.
although that move was dumb no matter how complicated it is.
by hawksdawgs on Jan 12, 2010 10:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And I thought I was just not paying attention.
They panned to a shot of House and Scalabrine sitting next to each other and I though “wonder why they aren’t playing?” Never realized it was because they just stopped subbing.
Wonder if that was deperation or just stupidity?
by Duff_Man on Jan 12, 2010 11:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Strange
I did not realize that. That is the strangest thing i have heard about a strange game. They did not substitute for 19 minutes? That must be the most amazing pattern of staying with the same team I have ever heard of in an NBA game. Very strange
by ATLpaul on Jan 12, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It is not a rivalry until the Hawks beat them in the playoffs,
but the Hawks are a better team. They simply matchup great with Boston.
I am still amazed that the C’s can win without KG.
Rondo is a nice player, but a PG who cannot shoot from outside or make free throws cannot win games in the 4th quarter.
Kendrick Perkins is a nice complimentary piece, but he is not able to spread the floor, and is not particularly agile on defense.
Ray Allen is old as dirt. Paul Pierce was “the guy” on a bunch of Celtics’ teams that won 25 games.
I think they live off the air of incencibility they created during the title run, but that becomes a smaller blip in the rear-view every day.
by Fred Pen on Jan 12, 2010 10:15 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
You don't think it's a rivalry?
Were you alive in 1988? I recommend you go back and watch that playoff series. I have the whole thing on VHS somewhere. (And yet I threw out my VCR 6 years ago)
I assure you that it is a rivalry. And it dates pretty far back. Regardless of the wins and losses, these two teams dislike each other and it shows.
by Duff_Man on Jan 12, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It is a rivalary
All you have to do was hear the Celtics fans last night at the beginning of the game. I was watching on TV, but that must be the first time I have ever heard a crowd so into it so early in the game by chanting Defense, Defense. That is amazing. You want to tell me Celtics fans scream defense defense if they did not believe in this being a tough rivalry game in the first couple minutes. As for games past, Duff-man, right on….
by ATLpaul on Jan 12, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fred, since this is not a rivalry
I am sure you won’t mind taking on the Hawks in the playoffs! (Just so you know, we all want to see it happen too).
by rbubp on Jan 12, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hilarious!
I am one of the most loyal Hawk fans you will find. I certainly believe that it is a rivalry, and I do have some vague memories of the 80’s series. But, I am not sure that a lot of today’s players know that Doc was a Hawk.
I also believe that the Celtics know deep down that it is a rivalry, and that Paul Pierce is a chump, but I do see his point.
I don’t want to give too much creedence to a couple of regular season wins. Yes, it is awesome, but I want it to happen in the playoffs.
Oh, and Duff Man, if you think Garnett is a kid, check out when Josh Smith was born. I think one of the Boston writers hit it more accurately when he made this analogy:
Could it be we have seen this before? Didn’t the mid-1980s Celtics fight off the young Pistons in a couple of playoff series before Detroit finally learned how to overcome and overwhelm an aging Boston squad in the postseason?
http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2010/01/12/flight_pattern_developing_as_hawks_again_beat_the_celtics/
by Fred Pen on Jan 12, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Are Hawks a better team
Not sure we are better yet, to your point, we need to defeat Celtics in a playoff series(if we meet). But note, if Celtics can’t smell, feel, taste a changing of guard, then their bones are not the only thing that are creaking, their vision is also going away. A young team winning more across the board, an old team starting to lose games to the young team, so many examples of that in the past. The old team says yes we are still better, but that is the first sign that things are changing if not changed yet. Celtics and Lakers lost it to Pistons first in 80s gradually, then Pistons lost it to Bulls gradually. It all happened like this. Not over night. Do you notice the quiet confidence that is coming from the Hawks team and blogs this morning. Compare that to comments that HawksDawg put up above. There is a reason for that. We can see the changing happening…
by ATLpaul on Jan 12, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think we're a better team yet
But styles make fights
by axhfan on Jan 12, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It sounds like the Celtics are trying to convince themselves the Hawks are not a rival and are an inferior team — and are having a hard time of it. Now if the Hawks could just arrange it so they win the 2nd seed and Boston the 3rd seed….
by redwards95 on Jan 12, 2010 11:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
True.
Although I wouldn’t mind if they were the 1st seed and the Hawks were the 4th seed and met that way in the semifinals. I think they can win a playoff game there now.
by VAHawksFan on Jan 12, 2010 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
aaaah pierce doesn't want to admit it but ever since the floor 07 playoffs this has been a rivalry
When jj and cassel got T’d up, that was the icing. when Boston got physical and just plain mean, it became a rivalry. he can deny it all he wants but everyone knows the hawks are obviously the better team with the younger and agile players. denying the obvious will not get you anywhere pierce. Idk why I want to play the cavs like right now, it just seems like a perfect time for a rematch. and congrats jj on 1000 and something 3s
by Hawksgirl on Jan 12, 2010 11:35 AM EST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Pierce has lost alot of my respect over the last few years...
and not because he is always out of shape, whines alot, or can only make jumpshots from the elbows. if a team beats you 3 out of 3 times, just man up and admit theyre a better team. no excuses. you dont see our captain telling the media after losing to orlando twice that we are a better team.
maybe the celtics are right and this isnt a rivalry. usually in a rivalry, over a four game series, the other team wins two games. so maybe theyre right and the hawks arent their rival. the hawks are a better team and have better teams to worry about. celtic fans sure got fired up for this one (the hawks took over in the second half) and doc rivers sure got emotional about this game.
by VAHawksFan on Jan 12, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The change is happening
Pierce always had a reputation pre-KG, but with KG and RA, Pierce agreed to become a team player. Hence the creation of a Big three. Now KG is not there, and Pierce is back to old ways, though he is not taking as many shots. Pierce always was a great player, but had a reputation for complaining. He needs to be careful. With Perkins and Rasheed on that team, they can have a lot of complainers. The refs remember those things. As for the change, it is without a doubt true, Hawks a better team across the board this year. Addition of Jamal, and maturity of our youth is self-explanatory. Whereas the Celtics, don’t seem to have their entire team ready. A trend. I hope they can get healthy in time, i love to see them at full strength come playoff time. Will make for great basketball with us or other strong Eastern powers. I take our chances with Celtics :)
by ATLpaul on Jan 12, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good win.
I think its funny that ESPN made a big deal about the Celtics being without Garnett…last time I checked, we beat them even worse in Boston a few months ago with Garnett. Also, mad respect to those two hawks fans sitting on the baseline. They made my day.
by VAHawksFan on Jan 12, 2010 11:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
those fans were extremely bold and got through the boos lol
But it was good to see fans come out no matter the city
by Hawksgirl on Jan 12, 2010 11:41 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
True we beat them with KG
But let’s be a little careful. KG was just getting his feet under him in that first game. I am not sure he was up to full speed. So now the big question, will he be full speed even by the end of the season. I have a sense if we have JJ performing as he has against them most of the time, it will not make a difference. We are changing the order
by ATLpaul on Jan 12, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, the high-intensity games, with technicals often being flung about
Sure, these don’t indicate a rivalry.
by Bronn on Jan 12, 2010 12:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Regarding Joe Johnson
The big difference last night was that this wasn’t the same old Joe show. On the season, he’s assisted on 35% of his made baskets. Last night, it was 8 of his 14. That’s because the Hawks were moving the basketball, making the extra pass, and finding shots for Joe in rhythm. I loved how the ball was going in down low and then swinging back out to the perimeter. It’s much, much easier to find open shooters when you start with a pass inside.
by Bronn on Jan 12, 2010 12:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I actually saw Joe run off a pick!
He got the ball from Bibby at the top of the key and drained a jumper! I was beside myself!
by Duff_Man on Jan 12, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
amen JJ coning off a pick - this is how he should recieve the ball.
even in our loss to orlando the last 4 games have the hawks getting into their sets early into their offense. Even an ISO is better early – less standing around.
by RivBoatGambler on Jan 12, 2010 6:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
im not sure atlanta has won enough against full strength boston to make it a rivalry,
but i worry a bit that boston is getting to be like the pistons were from 2006-2008. i still think the road to the title goes through boston as long as garnett is healthy, but their attitude is strange and arrogant.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
by TheMoon on Jan 12, 2010 2:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
A rivalry this is
Again just listen to the Celtics crowd. They know it. They feel it. The Hawks are one team they don’t want anything to do with. They are passionate playing us. It is a rivalry for the fans, and listen to the comments of the team. It should be obvious. having said that, I think the road to the title goes through the kingdom and the king. My money would be on that team, but just an opinion.
by ATLpaul on Jan 12, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if you judge a rivalry by the vehemence of the fanbase then the warriors and blazers have an
active rivalry with just about every team in the league. a rivalry should be pretty difficult to achieve, and it needs to be mutual. in other words, the hawks are competing with boston to take the kind of glory they have from them. boston however does not want anything the hawks have or had. they likely view atl as an annoyance at this point, a frisky but essentially unproven factor in their quest to reclaim what they thought should have been theirs last year but for the KG injury. beat them in the playoffs this year and you will have 1-3 years of rivalry, which would be really awesome for the nba.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
by TheMoon on Jan 12, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
An annoyance
Well as I said in another post, that is the normal attitude of a team on decline. The natural reaction is to not believe in the obvious. There have been three games with Celtics this year,all three game they lost, the pattern is similar, near end of the games, Celtics run out of steam(I agree last night was a strange game). The great players Celtics have accumulated have many miles, hence the difficulties near end of games. Rondo is a fast player, but many times, i seem him penetrating and having to dish out for jumpers. When jumpers go in great, but that is not the way to win games and it stops working near end of the game.
The fan passion of an educated crowd like the Celtics, should be a good indication of whether this is a rivalary or not.
by ATLpaul on Jan 12, 2010 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
im an nba fan first and a bulls fan second. so, no.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
by TheMoon on Jan 13, 2010 1:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rivalry
Hmm, every time this comes up I’m going to point back to this. Please, if you think this isn’t a rivalry, I implore you to read this. The numbers do not lie.
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
by Jesse28 on Jan 12, 2010 2:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The whinning, crying celtics
That was like watching a reality TV show. Everyone, including the hawks, were watching their oscar worthy performances everytime a foul was called on them. I was a lil worried in the first half but I knew the hawks were going to try to compete somehow. And low and behold Doc granted the hawks the tech gifts. I believe the shock of the hawks actually getting calls on their court got to them, because they’re used to that football style of play.
Oh well, even though we have another game with them at the end of the month, we won the series. When they come back to Philips Arena I hope they do have KG and Sheed and blow them out by 20.
I believe I actually understand the switching technique watching THAT GAME. I think the key to making it work is doubling, rotation, and boxing out(the basics)
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
by maxxj3 on Jan 12, 2010 3:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't get it
Pierce denies there rivalry and says their still the better team. yet you lost 3 to us 2 being at Boston with another lost more than likely in the works. their fans come on the blog and try to disrespect the hawks since 07 playoffs and everytime we play them everyone seems to have a hair temper (short temper) mainly pierce. how can you be in denial about about the obvious
by Hawksgirl on Jan 12, 2010 9:04 PM EST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
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