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Out with the old, in with the old?

To my surprise, most people really like the resigning of Marvin Williams. Some may even say love. Which if Marvin Williams fails to live up to this contract, I will look forward to 95% of those people revising history to yell and scream about how they never wanted him (which is pretty much what every national media person did after having Marvin ahead of CP3 on their draft board).

Of course, there is still dissention. Some comes from outright belligerent hatred for what I can only assume stems from some wrong Marvin has done to their family. But others have less disdain for Marvin and more just a hope that the Hawks would sign someone other than our man with the mustache.

I am not here to reconcile hate but feel the need to address that oh so common grass is greener idea on almost any resigning.

Age is just a number?

Marvin Williams turned 23 in June. That is exactly one year younger than Trevor Ariza, six less than Lamar Odom, nearly a decade from Vince Carter, and a half century gap with Hedo Turkolu (ok fine he is only 30). To argue for one of these guys over Marvin is to assume certain ideas to the detriment of Williams and ignore all other assumptions that bring the Mustache into a better light.

What in God's green goodness am I talking about? Well, Marvin outperformed Ariza in almost every conceivable category in the per 36 (other than assists), and Marvin is younger. So in a sense, the argument has to go, Marvin has less upside because he has played more. Put another way, Ariza is more desirable because we have seen less of him. This however ignores his actual stats which are worse than Marvins (have I said that yet), his small sample size, and that his best production came next to the second best player in the league.

Fine then, give me a veteran. No more Marvin the project. But Williams has not only improved every year, he has added entire areas to improve in. But those other three guys are already improved. They are better than Marvin now you say. This may be true, but if the Hawks need, say, Lamar Odom to win the championship you are already assuming many other players on the team will improve dramatically and that Odom will be the same player he was in his contract year.

So in the end only young players other than Marvin are going to improve and only older players are not going to drop off production.

But what about the fountain of youth?

Lamar Odom peaked in terms of PER between 2003-2006 (the only seasons he has been above 17). In those seasons he was shockingly the ages of 24 to 26 and had finished four seasons before the string of those three seasons. At the start of Hedo's fifth season, he went on a run of his three best seasons in the next four years. He was 25 in that fifth year. Vince Carter? He just completed the two least productive seasons of his career.

Assuming any of these guys fit well into a Joe Johnson dominated offense (Odom and Ariza are the only real possibilities there), none of these guys are guaranteed to play at the same level of past years. In fact, Lamar Odom has never been thought of as a great teammate until he was in a contract year and receiving death stairs from Kobe Bryant. Trevor Ariza was never even thought of. And most of these guys have already started their decline.

Final thoughts

Marvin may not work out earn every bit of that 40 million. But we know what we are getting with him. A guy who has produced, is still getting better, and will only be 23 at the start of the season. I honestly do not know what we would get next season with Ariza, and I would be scared to think about what we would get in three years with those other veterans.

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The need

The only “need” I think we could justify not signing marvin for is a true center and the only one available this year was Gortat and he was retained by the magic. A starting line-up of bibby, joe, josh, Al and Gortat would have been pretty formidable with crawford, za za, and teague coming off the bench would have made a nice 8 man rotation. Outside of that, marvin was the best available FA imo and I’m glad we kept him.

by The Beard on Jul 30, 2009 12:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Marvin has the raw talent to be an All Star but seems to lack the killer mentality and too often defers to Joe and Bibby (but maybe that’s just what Woody wants him to do?). He’s worth the reasonable contract the Hawks appear to be paying him considering the lack of alternatives. Having Mo Evans or Mario West as starting SF wouldn’t have worked.

by redwards95 on Jul 30, 2009 12:34 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This is true.

But he’s only 23. He will play with other players and other coaches before he is past his prime. He has a good work ethic, plays consistently hard if not really with fire and fury…I guess what I’m saying is that he has accepted that his role on this team with this coach is to learn rather than lead.

His time will come.

I hope the Hawks will have the sense to recognize his talent and give him the ball—which may mean Woody or Joe has to go in the next 1-3 years.

My money’s on them both going, a new coach coming in, and firmly establishing Marvin as the Lamar Odom option (but with 3 pointers and a post-up game) behind the #1 guy they sign after letting Joe go.

by rbubp on Jul 30, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Marvin has no post up

Marvin has no post-up game to speak of. No one on this team does. You guys are in love with this excuse of a player.

by Hawks-Semi Fan on Jul 30, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's certainly incorrect.

They just didn’t ask him to do it much. I wish I had video to prove this, but I don’t, and I know Marvin is apt to face-up drive as well. But I know that I have watched him take the ball in the low post and hit that little turnaround half-hook on numerous occasions; and then there’s those nights in February when JJ was out that he “got to the rim at will” (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290204016) and made all those free throws. When JJ was OUT.

More on this:
http://www.hoopinionblog.com/2009/06/2008-09-season-review-marvin-williams.html

Marvin has lots of things the Hawks don’t use enough. In terms of versatility and efficiency, he was the second-best offensive player on the team last year, hands-down.

by rbubp on Jul 30, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

is it bad

that my heart started racing with excitement as i read your post?

by hawksdawgs on Jul 30, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Okay I will be civil

You fail to mention that at 23 Marvin has back issues. That’s a scary sign of this guys durability and they go and sign the guy to a long-term contract. We all know your back and abdominal area which is called your trunk is the most important area for an athlete. That area is closely related to your legs also. Marvin is damaged goods, is the point. Finally, if Marvin were going to get better he would have by now. He constantly hears about Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Danny Granger, dont you think if he could have stepped it up to another level he would have by now?(When I say get better, I mean take a real leap) When you add an aggressive Jeff Teague and an aggressive Jamal Crawford, I don’t see this unaggressive guy ever stepping forward.

by Hawks-Semi Fan on Jul 30, 2009 1:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

thank you for the civility

when i heard marvin had an “undisclosed back injury” i was right there with you. but he came back (which i dont think he would have done unless healthy knowing his impending fa) and the hawks signed him (which i dont think they would have done if it was severe).

and i agree with you. i dont think marvin is going to be produce like a number 2 pick is expected to. but he also did not get max money (or close to it).

good point on new guys taking shots away too. still, i think the deal is reasonable for what we have seen so far and as i said in this post, i think marvin is as good an option longterm as most other guys available.

we may just have to agree to disagree.

by hawksdawgs on Jul 30, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

???

Hawks-Semi Fan….Seriously, what is your deal with Marvin?? The point you fail to realize is that Danny Granger, Deron Williams, and Chris Paul are ALL their respective team’s franchise player. If you haven’t noticed, Joe Johnson is ours. Under another system,(anybody not named Woody), you could make that comparison. You have to compare apples to apples here. Your argument simply does not. With what’s left in the FA market, IMO, we got a hell of a deal with Marvin. I like Marvin. I think he has a great work ethic and will only get better. If not, who’s going to die because of it? Not me, not you, not anybody else reading this blog. Shizz happens!! Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but your bitter hatred and venomous rants regarding Marvin is getting a little old. Go Hawks!!

by dstdeelite on Jul 30, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

When Deron Williams arrived he was not given the title of franchise player and Danny Granger definitely was not. Danny Granger was not even a lottery pick. I have never heard of a team picking someone in the late teens to be there franchise player. He became there franchise player because he was that good. So, they decided to build around him. What is your hatred towards Woody? Everything is Woody’s fault to all of you guys. I bet Woody want be able to stop Jamal Crawford from averaging atleast 15 pts this year. Off the bench or whatever he will get his. Finally, for all of you guys saying it is market value or a deal. I think your thought process is idiotic. Why did the Lakers not pay Ariza the $8 mill a year he wanted? He was one of 2 glue guys(along with Fisher) for the champions, because it was not a championship move. This is not a good move your gonna pay a guy $8 a year to be a glue guy, that’s the word a lot of you guys are throwing around when referring to Marvin, when actually Al is the glue and heart of the team, on a team that will get bounced in the 2nd round at best and the champions would not have done it. Shows just how far the Hawks, their fans, their ownership, and front-office is behind real champions.

by Hawks-Semi Fan on Jul 30, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If your screen name is any indication.....

So if you’re a “semi-fan”, why even bother with these sites? I don’t understand your elevated blood pressure about this. Please let all the rest of us know who you believe would have been worthy of the money we’re paying Marvin. The person you suggest must be realistic and available.

by dstdeelite on Jul 30, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't need to prove anything to u

You don’t make sensible points. Marvin is not franchise player because he is not good enough. By the way, you only know if a player is available if you inquire. Who knew Okafur was available?

by Hawks-Semi Fan on Jul 30, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Typical...

Like I suspected, you can’t come up with anybody.

by dstdeelite on Jul 30, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

When you start making sense

I will come up with plenty of people. You make a silly statement about Paul, Williams, and Granger being franchise players, like that’s an excuse for Marvin. If they were not worthy of being franchise players they would not be. Watch basketball before you come on a blog. Im sure Marvin sent you here to take up for him. Tell him to show you some basketball tapes if he has ever watched any.

by Hawks-Semi Fan on Jul 30, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're funny......

I was actually asking for your honest opinion on who you thought would be best, but it doesn’t appear that you’ll be offering it any time soon. So……moving on. Because I am a Hawks “fan” (not of the Semi-variety), I watch every single game and attend most home games. So please do not insult me with that elementary verbiage about watching a game before coming to this blog. Take a chill pill and get on with life. I’m not here to having a pissing contest with you about whether Marvin is up to your standards. Have a great day! Go Hawks!! (and Marvin)

by dstdeelite on Jul 30, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he is gone

first time ban of a hawks fan. please keep things civil here. i like differing opinions but this is suppose to be blog people enjoy reading and coming to not one where they get defensive.

by hawksdawgs on Jul 30, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No one is saying he's a franchise player

your argument would make sense if he was getting a max contract, but he’s not so what are you saying we should have done?

by thirdfALCON on Jul 30, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Read the post

That started the discussion between myself and dstdeelite before commenting or your just adding an element that is not needed and will only cause confusion.

by Hawks-Semi Fan on Jul 30, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Glad to find out that's the point now

as it’d the first time you’ve brought it up. Nonetheless, it is a concern, but can anyone really say that he shouldn’t have been signed because he MIGHT get hurt? There’s no track record of injuries to suggest that, is there?

by rbubp on Jul 30, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

NIce catch on the media's hypocrisy about Marvin and CP3

That has annoyed me to no end, and it’s good to know that someone else notices it too.

I agree with all that you said about Marvin too. He’s the right guy at the right time for us. I just wish he was a bit cheaper since 7 million is the new 10 million in the economy.

by thirdfALCON on Jul 30, 2009 1:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Continuity underrated..

I truly believe that the Hawks are 1 player away from contending for the championship. A legit center would put us over the top. Why do we under rate the value of continuity. These guys know each other very well and bringing them back will give us some additional wins.
The Detriot Pistons went to the conference finals for 6 years mainly because of their familiarity with each other and the ability of management to keep the core together.
Even if Marvin does not improve ( highly unlikely at 23), 8 million per is not bad for his production especially his underrated defence. The more i think about the way Lebron walked over the Hawks in the playoffs, the more I am glad we have Marvin back !

by dkrib on Jul 30, 2009 2:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I laughed disproportionately hard at this
In fact, Lamar Odom has never been thought of as a great teammate until he was in a contract year and receiving death stairs from Kobe Bryant.

Death Stairs-you go down, but you never come up! New from Fisher-Price.

by Bronn on Jul 30, 2009 10:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

As Far as The Atlanta Hawks Minicamp: Amoung Forward or Center Candidates The Ones with Best Stats in college Were:

C-F Centers or Forwards
  Garrett Silar Division II All- American 16.4 ppg 7.8 rpg Augusta State
      6-11 295lbs
      Randolph Morris 16.1 ppg 7.8rpg
       Earl Barron 2002-03 7.6ppg 5.0rpg

 Among Forwards: Leo Lyons with 31-7 Missouri had 14.6 ppg 6.1 rpg
                               Shawn Taggert for #3 Memphis 10.4 ppg 7.6rpg
                               Clemente Martin for Newberry 19.2 ppg 5.6 rpg
                                Brian Hamilton Louisiana-Lafeyette 13.7 ppg 7.6 rpg
                                Othello Hunter Ohio State 9.9 ppg 6.5 rpg
                                Chris Ellis Wake Forest 3.8 ppg
                                Yaroslv Karolev Looked Good I don’t know his Stats.

       The Atlanta Hawks Had a Load of Talent for the Minicamp; Especially at Guard.
A position either Filled or almost filled.

by Jeff Gibson on Jul 31, 2009 4:56 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Who knows about Marvin?

First of all, I like Marvin Williams. He is a solid player and a fantastic athlete. But I did not agree with drafting him with the second pick. Let’s not forget he was a sixth man in his one year of college, and that certainly brings up a question to his fire. You can’t blame Woody for everything; at some point an elite player has to grabs the bull by the horns, regardless of coaching or the ownership. I believe that Marvin still has that potential. But it seems to me a coin flip at best.

That being said, I think the Hawks need to see this investment through. If we didn’t sign MW and he flourished somewhere else, it would be a devastating blow to the already-soiled reputation of the Atlanta Spirit Group.

Let's push this bird out of the nest.

by Yes I Am A Hawks Fan on Aug 1, 2009 3:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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