The state of the Atlanta Hawks small forward
Remember back in the day (and by day I mean three years ago) when it seemed like every player on the Hawks was 6'7'' or 6'8 and weighed 220 lbs? I used to call that defense "the captain planet." Everyone just stretch out their arms and by their powers combined they could cover every inch of the floor. Ahhh the good ol' days, when the beer flowed like wine.
Well, if Marvin Williams leaves this off season, the Hawks will have Mo Evans, Joe Johnson, or Josh Smith to play that 6'8'' 220ish position. None of those guys gets me running for the 2010 all star ballot.
A Look Back
Marvin Williams went into the summer trying to move his excellent two point jump shot range behind the arc. He finished the season shooting 35% from behind the arc on 155 attempts which was 47 more attempts than he had in his first three years combined. All in only 61 games of action. Probably the most impressive summer leap on the team right there. And I assume that 35% will only get better.
For all the talk about Marvin and his draft position, he has improved every year without any of the attitude another steady Hawk improver has had. Marvin's PER has increased each season, up to 16 this year (league avg. is 15) and his rebounds have increased every year. This year especially, Marvin has not only taken steps to be the best on the ball defender for the Hawks, he revels in the challenge. Watching Marv guard the likes of Paul Pierce and LeBron James, he showed more emotion on those defensive stops than I have ever seen on the offensive end. (Then again that Bibby esque dance after the would be game winner against Boston might have something to do with his normal decision to remain calm.) All this and he remains only 22.
But the mysterious back injury was certainly a bit scary. It was good for his bank account and the Hawks psyche that he came back for the playoffs and the only thing lacking was his timing, touch, and stamina. Still, back injuries that don't have words like "strain" in them stay over a players head for a long time.
The NBA may be a guards league these days, but small forwards more and more act like guards. Shoot, there is actually a term called point-forward. And for many teams, the primary point scorer still comes from this position. It is not surprising then that the Hawks greatest difference in PER by position for is at the small forward at -.8 (stat per 82games.com).
Overall, with Joe in the lineup, Marvin has always struggled to assert himself outside of the sporadic drive, open jumper, and fast break bucket. He certainly never demands the ball. And Mo Evans may have an excellent record in the games he started, but with Mo, you have a lesser defender and a more limited player on offense. Woody used Joe and Josh in the small forward slot either as a response to matchups or a desperation method to keep Acie Law on the bench.
Looking ahead
Tendering Marvin an offer is a must. Far too much investment has gone into him as a player and far too much potential remains to lose him for nothing. I do not care if Sund did not draft him. You get something for the effort of the organization and the loyalty of the fans. A sign and trade is a minimum for him. And with the tendered offer being over 6 million for next year, I could see all three options of resigning, trade, or acceptance of the final year salary by Marvin to be a real possibility.
Since I have always liked Marvin, I must throw out this little stat. If by miracles/horribleness (whichever your perspective) Marv becomes more aggressive and/or Joe Johnson is no longer on the team, Mr. Williams did go for 23 and 29 points in the two games Joe missed this season. Sample size, smample size.
Unless the Hawks move up in the draft or have a drastic change in vision regarding their own players (ie Joe Johnson or Josh Smith to the three), the Hawks must enter next season with Marvin Williams or someone of his equivalent as the starting small forward. Mo Evans is an excellent 8th man, but if he is starting opening night next November that means the Hawks downgraded a starter and weakened an already weak bench. And that of course will make me cry.
Final Thoughts
I would resign Marvin if I was Sund. I think in this economy you could can get Marvin for what he is worth which is a nice perk since Marvin's high draft status and still high potential normally bring suiters willing to overpay. That said I would certainly listen to offers. I do not think Marvin is ever going to the be the franchise center piece some number two picks turned out to be.
Finally, to take a trip on the "what if" train, if Woodson was not our coach and we could get him for two years and I was feeling a little crazy, I would not be opposed to a little one Ron Artest.
What are your thoughts? Feel free to to board the "what if" train or stay in reality.
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Comments
Are you saying?
Are you saying that Marvin would be comparable to Ron Artest.
And i really think moving forward we must make him our second scoring option.
sorry for the confusion
no, no, marvin is no artest.
the comparable talk was pointing to the fact that the Hawks cannot go into next season with someone “less than” marvin at the small forward position.
the artest talk was way in “what if” land because if woodson cannot deal with Josh Smith, Artest would eat him alive. and i am unsure if I mean that figuratively or not.
i like marvin as a second option
just not sure if I like it with Joe as the first. I feel like we need a post presence as a second option and marvin still has a good amount of work to do effectively posting up guys.
i could be talked down from that position though.
Oh
Oh okay so I got it. And I actually would not mind seeing Woody eaten alive.
And you know based off of what he did with his three point shooting I would not be surprised if he comes back with a post game that really makes people question Josh Smiths potential (not saying he doesn’t have any).
Finally...
Someone can see the value Marvin has for us. I just hate to see the “injury-prone” tag beginning to creep its head around the corner.
Great assessment, as always.
Move
First off, Joe Johnson or Josh Smith will be an all-star this year as long as the Hawks are in one of the top 5 slots in the East around All-Star time rather you are running to vote or not. Now to the topic at hand. Marvin needs to be part of a sign and trade package, hopefully along with J.CHills and A.Law. It’s good for Marvin and the team. Marvin definitely has value and can play, but I dont think he is a good fit here. I cant see both Phoenix and Toronto passing on Marvin, Josh Childress, and Acie Law for Bosh or Stoudemire. We may have to wait until the trade deadline next year, when teams realize they have to get something for these guys, but it can happen, and will happen for someone. Marvin needs to be the second or third option at worst, but that cant happen on this team. He is not going to be a option in front of Joe or Josh and we need to establish something down low, so he should not trumph Al, who is going to be a double-double guy eventually.
Finally, Marvin doesn’t fit what we are doing here. Your gonna have to pay $7+ mill a year and he should be no more than a 4th option. I think Marvin still has nice upside but he needs to further develop someone else. Your taking a risk becoming New York with a bunch of overpayed guys not going anywhere if you just continue to sign guys off of potential. He needs to be signed and traded.
Whoa!
I didn’t read any of the comments before posting. I am totally thrown by how many guys that want to make Marvin the 2nd option. Whatever happened to earning it? Marvin has not earned that. That would be one dumb mistake. Do any of you guys watch other teams. Making a guy into a second or fist option that doesn’t deserve it is how you get bloated contracts. Check Mike Bibby ($15), Jamal Crawford ($14) and the entire Knicks team. You cant just make a guy into something he isn’t and expect to be prosperous as a team.
I know it is hard to believe
It probably is hard to see this, but Marvin does what he is asked to do and more. He doesn’t show boat or do many exciting things, but he also is going to loose you any games because he didn’t come to play. If his shot isn’t going down he is going to the rim and getting to the line.
As far as the team’s offensive system he shouldn’t be the second option, but he definitely doesn’t deserve to not be considered.
If he doesn’t fit here then who does?
For A SMall Forward Marvin Does Good But Theres great talant in free Agent market ;though Marvin at 22 Should Be Resigned.
These are Available Some Small Forwards Some Power Forwards but all could Help Hawks Win More games Possibly:Ron Artest or Jamal Crawford, Other Than That Extra PF could Back up Marvin Like: Al Harrington,Drew Gooden, Mehmet Okur . Matt Barnes is respectable he may be a good Backup but Flip Murray Did Great Last Year But maybe a spot on team. Androyal Foyle, Antonio Mcdeyess, They are all Unrestricted F/A. Hedo Turkuglu. Tony Parker?
I don't understand why everyone is so ready to trade the rights to J Chill.
Our front office was arrogant and he was stubborn. Let’s see if we can get it right this year and bring him home. They don’t put sugar or ice in their tea in Greece. Lamb pita over fried chicken? OMG, the horror. Let’s get that young man home…
"We're not maxed out, ... The best is still ahead of us."
Bobby Bowden
i am ready to trade because I think the two sides have severed the relationship
could not agree more about the arrogants and stubburn but those moderately childish actions hurt really big, manly egos.
when rick sund talked to us bloggers, the one thing i came away feeling very secure about reading between the lines was that childress is not in the long term plan.
that may have been more arrogance from Sund. I really don’t know, but he showed no interest in talking about childress.
That said i would love chil on the team. I just don’t think it would happen which is why I am so eager to get something…anything for him.
On any given night when his head is in the game Josh Smith can fill up more columns in a stat sheet than Marvin, but Marvin will give you better defense and better outside shooting every game and isn’t a headcase. Therefore I’d like the Hawks to resign Marvin and see if they can trade Smith to upgrade at the point or center positions.
Marvin is consistant...
You know exactly what you’re gonna get from him. I take that over roller coaster any day…
"We're not maxed out, ... The best is still ahead of us."
Bobby Bowden
Life full of Headaches
My life is full of headaches. I wouldn’t know Im living if everything was going smooth. Josh has shown the ability to elevate his game in the playoffs both years. He was impressive at home against K.G. and Boston last year and he was our best player in the playoffs this year. He is also from ATL and sells tickets. Marvin misses 15 to 20 games a season and the most consistent thing about him is the use of the word potential when it comes to his ? growth. Marvin, J.Chill, and Acie should get us another star so when can have a legit Big 3.
by Hawks-Semi Fan on May 30, 2009 10:11 PM EDT reply actions
I actually totally agree with you here.
by get swoll yunel on Jun 1, 2009 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Buyer's Remorse
Hello Hawks. I used to love you. Remember when Uncle Mutombo controlled the paint? Pearl Jam led the league in steals. And a guy named Smitty assumed a role similar to a certain Joe. Sure, the offense was mediocre. But their defense was one of the best in the history of the game. Scoring is more fun to watch than blocks, rebounds, and steals, so we all took them for granted.
Then a decade-long drought destroyed the lands, and the few natives that survived were left with an ever-present emptiness inside. Now you what us to believe again? Ha! I refused to put to heart into anything owned by the Atlanta Spirit Group. It would be like dating a mobster’s daughter.
So Hawks, you look great. And I still love you. I’m just not IN love with you. Why don’t you get those issues taken care of and give me a call sometime?
Let's push this bird out of the nest.
by Yes I Am A Hawks Fan on May 31, 2009 5:13 AM EDT reply actions
Maybe this is just my childhood nostalgia talking
but Smitty > Joe.
Sorry, Joe.
by get swoll yunel on Jun 1, 2009 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Nostalgia is a wonderful aphrodisiac
I was referring to the fact that both of them admirably fit into shoes that were just a bit too big to fill. But if you compare their stats, you would have to give the slight edge to Joe.
Let's push this bird out of the nest.
by Yes I Am A Hawks Fan on Jun 1, 2009 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Joe to Cavs
The Cavaliers will have to do something “drastic” in the off-season. Let’s give them JJ. As has been discussed, he has reached full potential but would fill a great role with the Cavs and certainly play less minutes.
What do we get in return?
I have doubts we're going to trade our best scorer to a team that swept us in the playoffs...
"We're not maxed out, ... The best is still ahead of us."
Bobby Bowden
Give it one more year
Although it looks like trading Smith would be best, but trading Marvin and Acie is more likely. Too many forwards not enough centers, too many starters and not enough bench.
BUT I’m willing to give it one more year……..If we can put some size on the bench (get Mikki Moore please) and trust that our talent blossoms over the summer (Horford, Smith, Williams) AND Draft Jrue Holiday/Teague to back up Bibby…..trade Acie and Zaza….decrease Joe’s minutes in the regular season…..use the bench (that’s on Woody)
Keep the same starters…but be willing to change it depending on who we play. SIZE or SPEED
hindsight is 20/20
Think about this in "99 we could of have Maggette, in ‘00 we could have drafted Jamal Crawford and Michael Redd. Kept Pao Gasol in ’01 and taken Tony Parker, Gilbert Arenas,
Wow how good could we have been with Parker, Redd, Magette, Josh Smith, Gasol….of course who knows how things would have worked out and maybe we don’t get those picks each year …..but its cool to dream

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