Peachtree Hoops: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Around SBN: Can Tebow Say No To Anything?

Trading Joe Johnson

Hawksdawg you are a damn fool!

More photos » John bazemore - AP

Hawksdawg you are a damn fool!

Back in January, the Hawks hosted blogger night. A group of us made excuses at our part time jobs, told our moms we would be missing dinner, and found our very best Al Horford jersey to wear to the game. Ok fine, I was the only one wearing a jersey. But during halftime, Rick Sund came into our suite and answered questions without really answering them. He treated us like we were small time bloggers, and I loved every second of it. Somehow every question came back to how he was in the process of evaluating the team. Needless to say I was impressed with his ability to take us seriously without taking us seriously at all.

But amidst the long and varied ways of saying he was evaluating the team, Sund mentioned that only maybe five players have reached their full potential. Mike Bibby, Zaza Pachulia, Flip Murray, Mo Evans, and Joe Johnson.

I cannot say I disagree much with his assessment. Those players may get craftier and a little more nuanced in their game, but there will not be any more leaps forward. It all seemed pretty basic to me so I never gave it much thought at the time, but as the off season hit home, the idea of a full realized Joe kept bouncing around my head.

I think we can, for the most part, agree that we know what we are going to get with Joe Johnson. That he is a borderline all-star (more in the country of all-star than not) who is a durable, very good defender, and can score in bunches when he gets a bunch of shots.

If Sund is correct, he is never going to rise much further than what he is now. Which is not a knock. Most players in the league do not even know what direction the border of all-star is let alone are near enough to straddle it. But it raises the question, if a player is close to his full potential and in the final year of his contract, should the Hawks look to trade that player while his value is high?

Put another way, what would happen if the Hawks traded Joe Johnson?

I am not a Joe Johnson hater. I love him as a player. Love what he has done to lead the Hawks out of the low point that was that 13 win season. I have never once questioned brining Joe to Atlanta. I certainly play the "what if" game in regards to those two first round picks the Hawks gave to the Suns, but if someone could prove Phoenix was matching without that compensation, I would do the exact trade again. Joe came and led this team when no free agent was up to the task.

That said I have begun to think in an ideal world where the NBA made bold moves regularly, trading Joe might be just what the Hawks need.

The Argument if the Hawks keep Mike Woodson

I do not like Woodson's offense, but if anything has been made clear over his tenure, it is what it is. We should not expect some major new wrinkle come next season. Woodson likes isolations and one on one play. He believes if his players execute they can get the shot they need. For the coach, the game is always established on the defensive end, and then a few players just need to make enough plays on the offensive end to win. Hope you hit your shots. That is Mike Woodson offensive basketball.

The Hawks therefore needed Joe when the team was very young. They needed a guy who knew how to score and had the skill to do it. With Josh Smith, Al Horford, and Marvin Williams slowly but very steadily improving their offensive game, the need to rely on Joe is not quite what it once was.

Still, the Joe Johnson role has gone unchanged. He still gets the most shots, the most isolations, the most sets. Yet he very well may be the least efficient of the four. He has the lowest fg% of the four, shoots around the same amount of free throws, and his PER is only 2 points higher than the low man Al Horford.

It is not that I think the Hawks would be better without Joe Johnson, but that Marvin, Josh, and Al would have an easier time growing into their potential if they were allowed more touches on offense, and in the end, that change may lead to a better Hawks team than the one with Joe on it. The fact of the matter is Marvin, Al, and Josh have more overall upside, can get to the line more often, and have the athleticism and position to hit a higher percentage of their shots, and as long as Joe Johnson and Mike Woodson are here, the large majority of the offense is going to ignore these facts and go through our all-star.

 

Star-divide

The Argument if the Hawks fire Mike Woodson

The three players I have been referencing against Joe Johnson are all at their best in an up tempo game. They are long, athletic guys, who can run and finish at the rim. Sometimes Al Horford gets so tired of the half court he starts his own fast break. Josh Smith sadly does the same thing.

Joe of course has shown he can thrive in such a system. It got him a large contract from us coming out of Phoenix. Plus, anyone who has ever seen his pull up three in transition knows why some (ok me) call him Joe "freaking" Johnson. Sadly though, if anyone has ever seen him finish on the fast break, they also know he is not and should not be the leader of these breaks. In a fast paced offense, Joe is a terrific third option, but he is no longer the first option. I do not know any Hawks fans that say get the ball to Joe on the break unless he is camped out at the three point line.

Joe is methodical. He might have the slowest drive to the hoop in basketball. The man probes. He sets things up. He likes using 20 seconds of the shot clock. It works for him, and it keeps Woodson from needing to even think about a second option for 60 percent of the offensive possessions.

But if Woodson were to be let go, I would hope the Hawks would bring in a coach with a style of offense that was a change from Woodson. You fire a coach to move the team in a different direction. No just because of a difference in opinion on substitution patterns.

In this sense, it makes sense to question where Joe would fit in such an offense and if his trade value out weighs his value on the court then you have to start asking some tough questions.

Logistics

Joe Johnson is an unrestricted free-agent in 2010. That leaves only this year guaranteed with the Hawks. A year from now Atlanta will either decide to live and die the next five years with Joe Johnson or lose him for nothing.

On the other end of things, it was clear through injuries and the max eight man player rotation throughout the year, the Hawks need more depth. With free agents, the Hawks have real need at the point guard, two guard, and center position. Moreover, starting this summer with Marvin Williams and especially in two years with Al Horford, the Hawks must ask tough questions about where they plan to invest their money.

All of these guys will not stay on the Hawks. Right now, of the players mentioned, Al Horford and Joe Johnson probably have the highest trade value. With multiple areas of need, a trade might be the easiest way to fill more than one hole with only one move. No one wants to see players they have grown to love leave, but in the business of the NBA, the Hawks need to do what is best for the team.

Rick Sund must be done evaluating. The direction needs to be set, and that means looking to make decisions not just one summer at a time, but make moves with five years from now in mind. Sund could go any number of ways. He could trade any number of players.

But if I was running the Hawks, I would look long and hard at where Joe Johnson fits into the plan 4 years from now.  

 

0 recs  |  Comment 14 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Nice Argument but.....

The argument makes sense but, however, there is a key ingredent missing in the argument . You did not say what the Hawks will get back for Joe? Are you looking for draft picks in return? Looking around the league, there are at best 4 shooting guards better than Joe( Kobe , Wade, Ginobili and Roy) I dont think we will be getting any of them in a trade. So basically you are asking the Hawks to downgrade in terms of talent for the shooting guard position?

I think the key is that we need a point guard that can penetrate. That will open up easy shots for Joe and the others. My suggestion is that the Hawks go after Sessions. He will be the ideal point guard. Unfortunately, the lack of a penetrating point guard has made Joe have to work for his shots on Isolation. Right now, Joe is the only player on the team that can create his own shot. Joe is also the leader in assists. Bringing Sessions into the team will greatly reduce his play making role and also increase his FG% .
During the season, anytime Joe is on the bench, the Hawks struggle mightly to get good looks at the basket. When you lack a legitimate low post scorer and a penetrating point guard, it makes it easier for teams to defend you.

by dkrib on May 18, 2009 5:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i would take

a serviceable two guard or center and a lottery pick for joe.

by hawksdawgs on May 20, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Would you do

Joe and 19th pick to the Wiz for #5 pick, Nick Young, Andray Blatche and Etan Thomas’ expiring contract?

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on May 22, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

trading joe like trading chauncey

Yeah I said it. If you want the hawks to go back to the way they were before, trade him. To say he’s reached his full potential is subjective to the talent and coaching he is around. Every year he’s played for the hawks he has had to carry the hawks through weak offensive sets and has drawn double teams consistently without help. And did I forget to mention he played the most minutes out of any player in the league, without having the benefit of the whistle as an all-star?

Atlanta will win a championship....someday

by maxxj3 on May 26, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't agree

I don’t think our best option right now is to trade Joe. I would love to see what a new coach could do with the talent of our current roster. I think we need to beef up the bench and our front line. I’m not saying that eventually a trade would not be inevitable but to trade Joe right now, IMO would be counterproductive.

by dstdeelite on May 19, 2009 11:11 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agree 50%

Our front line needs to be tweaked because we keep two PFs on the court(Josh & Al).

When healthy our 8 man rotation is pretty good.(Flip-Offensive Minded, Evans-Defensive stopper,and Zaza-Solid Center backup)

Josh is like a SF but he lacks the consistant jumpshot to spread the floor and he doesn’t play enough in the post.

Horford reminds me a lot of Chuck Hayes without the offensive liability.

We need a true center at the end of the day.I don’t believe the whole “bibby needs to penetrate and dish” argument because frankly the Hawks don’t play like that.And for what Bibby was brought in to be (reliable #2 and a vet. he excelled at)…our main problem is Joe doesn’t have what it takes to be the Leader(Good player but he in my opinion asked for a role when leaving Phoenix which didn’t suit his personality).

I’m all for a new coach…Patrick Ewing(I’d give him a shot.He’s done great work with Howard and Yao.),Avery Johnson(Wasn’t Avery’s fault he was the toughest person on his team.),Bring back the Czar!,or I’d give Bryon Scott a chance because I think he will be given the boot for his team’s poor showing and possible lack of heart.

by LA26 on May 19, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Byron is a no-go

New Orleans has already made in clear that they’re sticking with Byron-for now….After this year, if the Hornets don’t excel, I can’t see him staying….if only everyone was as forgiving as Sund and The Spirit.

by dstdeelite on May 20, 2009 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Trading Joe would make sense if Rick Sund looked at the team, realized they would be good enough to make the playoffs for the next several years but not good enough to even get to the conference finals let alone the championship, and decided to blow it up, lose big for a year or two, and hope that along the way they lucked into the next Kobe, James, or Paul in the draft to complement Smith and Horford.

Instead I predict Sund will not only bring Woodson back but give him an extension (he got the Hawks the playoffs 2 straight years! /sarcasm). And he will bring as many of Bibby, Williams, Pachulia, and Murray back as he can afford. Then he will try to round out the rotation and bench with free agents and draft picks and hope that somehow lightning strikes (Smith, Williams, and Horford turn into All Stars or near All Stars; Bibby keeps shooting as effectively; Joe Johnson doesn’t drop dead of being played too many minutes) and the Hawks win a championship with close to the same core group they had this year. I doubt it will work. Considering how bad the Hawks were for most of the past decade, merely making the playoffs and possibly the 2nd round for another 2 or 3 years wouldn’t be terrible. The Hawks are stuck in the position they are now because of the bad drafts in ’05 and ’06, and it will be very difficult to get out of it without starting over unless Marvin, Josh, or Al (or even Acie) suddenly start playing much better than they have before.

by redwards95 on May 19, 2009 11:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Semi agree with this

I think this is the most likely scenario, but for a different reason entirely. I don’t think it matters much what Sund thinks as he is still handcuffed by our ownership group who have shown that the best path for the Hawks will always be the cheapest. They wouldn’t let Knight fire Woodson because they didn’t want to spend more money to get a better coach. They let Childress take his game overseas because they didn’t want to pay him and Smith. This ownership group is going to force Sund to keep as many pieces in the same place they are now for the cheapest price possible.

Nothing will change with anyone currently under contract. FA’s will be offered minimum offers or nothing at all. And come next year, we will once again get to watch Woodson waste the potential and talent of this team with a great deal less sucess.

Until our ownership group changes, the only thing that makes this team better is Woodson getting fired.

"If Woody were Captain of the Titanic, he'd argue the boat sinking speaks to how effectively they put rich people in life boats and lock the poor folks below."
-jrauch commenting at Hoopinion on Woody's (non)logic in his post-game comments

by Jesse28 on May 19, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The FA's Centers we can go after this summer

we need a center who can defend. Zaza is not a starter. If we can get Moore or Elson legit 7ftrs who are active and can protect the rim. It will help us compete with the top dogs in the East. Lebron got to the rim way too easy if Elson is there waiting and Josh/Al can help from behind
starters-
Elson 7ft ctr – little offense but decent rebounder
Magloire- you know what your getting and tough minded vet
Mikkie Moore- excellent rebounder doesn’t have to score—really need to get him

Bench Help
Donyell Marshall- can spread the floor with his shooting
Brian Skinner- tough rebounder

by Cmart34 on May 19, 2009 5:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

THE HAWKS MUST GET A CENTER

The hawks have a good roster of players but we are one good starting center away from competing for the eastern finals each year. My ideal dream come true would be for the hawks to pursue dwight howard after next season. imagine bibby, horford, smith, joe jo, and howard as our starting five, with murray, evans, zha zha, and marvin williams as our first 4 players off the bench!! awesome!!!

by ATLsince1972 on May 20, 2009 12:42 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Joe is Needed

Joe should not be traded by any means. As I have stated several times Marvin Williams, Josh Childress (if he chooses to return) and Acie Law should all be packaged to try and attract Stoudemire or Bosh.

The previous management stockpiled talent at the small forward and power forward positions. Josh Childress, 5th pick, small forward. Marvin Williams, 2nd pick, small forward. Josh Smith, 15,18,21, whatever pick he was, small forward. It’s time that you now cash in on that stockpiled talent as you did when you decided to move Sheldon Williams after you saw that he would never be near Al Hortford. You got Bibby for Williams. Now it’s time to go after another proven player instead of continue to deal with these projects. That’s the problem too many projects or players that haven’t reached their perceived potential. By the way, most of them never will. Finally, it makes no sense to trade Joe and leave a hole that you want be able to fill when you have a surplus of small forwards at your disposal.

by Hawks-Semi Fan on May 20, 2009 12:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about the Atlanta Hawks.
Start posting about the Hawks »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Hans_small
Lost Child
Small
Game knows Game
Lion_small
Morpheus, neo, Matrix, Smoove, and Tyler Thomas
Hawkscross_small
Love it Or Hate it Flaws and All
Small
What the hawks need to improve on
Small
Trade Idea( I came up with it out of the blue)
Small
Time for a line-up change...or something!
Mj_yellow_sweater_small
With possible injuries to a couple of reserves in the lineup at the ASG, who will their replacements be?
Small
How to win against Orlando
Small
THE MAGIC PROBLEM IS PSYCHOLOGICAL

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Zaza_pachulia_small hawksdawgs

Authors

Superman_small Bronn