has been directly related to how his body feels.

i also know solo has punched him in the face.

i was unaware that the ups and down of his play was ever related to Woodson. But i would be happy to add him to the list.

Flip Saunders
Eddie Jordan
Dwane Casey
Avery Johnson
Tyrone Corbin

but +1 for channeling Herm Edwards there.

There’s a name I would like to see thrown into the mix for our next head coach.

As for the post above, what did you think would happen when we drafted in the lottery for seven straight years? Of course the team will get better; it almost has to by default, even if I were coaching the team. The great talent, desire, and competitiveness of these players would drive them to succeed marginally more than the previous year because they are freakishly good at what they do.

Chicago would be another team that has improved the last four years without adding a sure-fire All-Star caliber player and they fired their coach. Woody definitely did not make Joe Johnson an all-star; he was established before he came here. The fact that he may not have gotten voted in before has more to do with the bogus fan voting system in place than anything or that he was part of a somewhat overly talented Suns team where here he was (and still is because of Woody’s horrible offensive system) our only go-to guy which makes him stand out more than before. Analogy: you put a 7-footer in a room full of 7-footers, they all look the same, but put him in a room full of five foot guys and he stands out.

As for Bibby, he isn’t that much different than he was when the Hawks went after him. Billy Knight was the one who made that move, simultaneously freeing up cap space and giving us a solid PG. I would venture that his opportunity to play for a playoff contending team versus the horrid Kings was what stimulated his offensive resurgence more than anything Woody did. And he still can’t play a lick of defense, hence why almost every game preview consists of an opposing G that is most likely to burn us. Ditto for Flip, though I would subtract less emphasis on Flip since his assists are up and he seems to be much more consistent offensively than Bibby, or at least for longer stretches with less variance.

Acie plays much better defense than either of those two given what little minutes he’s allowed to play and his offensive numbers have been improving with more play time recently, so it wouldn’t be a stretch to assume that given consistent minutes with the first squad, we might really have a decent PG for the future on our hands. Yet time and time again Woody doesn’t play him for not just periods of a game, but over the course of games at a time. I have to imagine that their must be yet another rift between coach and player with regards to these two.

Ric Sund said the goal for the season would be to win a playoff series, not simply winning. Winning could mean only winning 19 games, but that doesn’t make it a successful year. And Woody did not make Al Horford a lock as an All-Star, Horford did that himself by almost winning the RotY award and being a complete beast inside before he even stepped into the league. He was destined to be an All-Star from the beginning, plus MLT has already stated the best proof that Woody has had no impact on Al’s game.

Finally, you are misplacing the Woody’s expectation with the team’s. Woody has done nothing but what most of us here expected him to do from the end of last year. Substitute poorly, have horrible offensive play-calling, not be able to recognize mis-matches and take advantage of those, and create drama between himself and the players. We fully expected the team to get better and most of us had the team pegged for 40-45 wins. What one expects from the team as a whole does not translate to what one expects from individuals.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again now, I fully believe these players recognize their own talents and are driven to succeed and get better each year in spite of the coach and his coaching philosophies. The constant issues between players and Woody would seem to indicate evidence of such.

so thanks for voicing it so well.

a lot of stuff you say and/or point out with i agree with. and of course anytime the main point of a post is the coach should be let go, it is going to sound like bashing. but i did not necessarily mean to bash. Woodson has brought the team very far. I just do not believe he can bring them much further. That has less to do with his skill set and more to do with his inability to adapt and relate to players.

i will only say this. by and large, nba coaches are not the ones that improve individual players games. They corral and encourage the skills and limitations a player brings to the table. Due to certain respect issues that have come to the surface repeatedly and how woodson has never shown the ability to corral or encourage through his offensive sets, I think the Hawks improve based on the players ability to improve. And as i said before, play improvement (a new post move, better range, etc) usually comes from work in the summer far away from head coaches, whether you are Phil Jackson or Mike Woodson.

So that is why I stand the way I do. I am sure, in the end, we are going to agree to disagree, but I wanted to clarify my post.

Again, thanks for your perspective. It is needed here so we are critics and not bashers.

1. You just stated my point. JJ was on a team loaded with All-Star talent so it’s easy for him to get lost when getting an All-Star selection is based on a popularity contest and there’s no way they are voting in 4/5 starters from the same team. Move him to a team with ZERO all-stars and he is instantly noticeable.

2. Fine, I admit I just threw the Bulls out without looking that up. Guess I was just thinking of the four or five years prior because they have been bad for a while, same as teh Hawks.

3. I never credited Mark Price for the Hawks winning, I just said I thought he would be an interesting option for a head coach. Do I think he has had an impact, yes. It has been well documented that he has been working with the team on their 3pt shooting, and the numbers this year compared to last year seem to support that.

4. Player/Coaching dynamics are always important. Sure, winning is obviously the ultimate goal, but if the player/coach relationship deteriates to a point where it is keeping the team from winning (i.e Bulls/Skiles or Knicks/Thomas), then how can you say it isn’t important? The history is there to support that there may well be a problem with Woody, it’s not just the Josh Smith drama.

5. Now you are just arguing against your own point. Seriously, first you claim Woody gave Hordford his post move, made JJ an All-Star, and brought Bibby back to life, now you are saying that he didn’t, but that they themselves did. Well, which one is it?

6. Who cares what Hollinger or any other analyst had pegged the Hawks before the season? Those guys routinely get it wrong and they have zero impact on front office decisions. Of course they picked the Hawks near the bottom, they have been doing it for so long now that they are just used to it. They also thought that losing Josh Childress was going to have a bigger impact than it did, as most of us probably thought as well. I picked the Hawks to win 40-45 games and be in the middle of the East, so did a bunch of other people here. Does that mean that Sund should give the Coach an extension because the team equalled my prediction? No, it does not, so I fail to see what exactly your point here is.

7. The +/- stat is overrated and can only be used objectively when used in conjuction with other personal stats. It represents what the team did while that player was on the court, not necessarily a direct result of said player being on the court. If I go and stand on the court in the corner and pick my nose while the team scores 30 points and the other team scores 0, then I get a +30. I did absolutely nothing to cause that to happen. No one here has said that Acie is outright better than Flip and Bibby, we have only stated that Acie is better at certain things than those two and that without more minutes we can’t objectively decide if he is overall better than they are. Minutes may not be an excuse, but they can influence certain stats such as the +/-. The longer a player gets the play, the more they can impact the game, positively or negatively.

8. That’s just one source. I believe in a recent interview he mentioned that winning a playoff series was the current goal for the franchise. Either way, this has nothing to do with the current discussion.

Finally, it seems to me that the premise of your opinion is that we should give more credit to Woody for the winning and the improvement over the years. I will admit that I do not believe that he has had zero affect on those two things, because has Drew stated, having Woody as a constant has allowed all of our young guys to grow into the league under a singular coaching umbrella. That’s a good thing always, but I do not believe he is the only reason and I do not think that means we should not look at his faults and desire more. If we are to credit him with the winning then you have to credit him with the losses just as much.

here is what i would say in regards to “getting along.” being a hard nosed coach that rubs young players the wrong way is one thing.

not being able to communicate a reason for doing so is what the business world calls bad management.

i have been yelled at by people i respect and people I don’t. there is a big difference.