Mike Woodson thinks there can only be one kind of Joe Johnson, so back off
by hawksdawgs on Dec 4, 2009 10:06 AM EST
50 comments
Not sure how I missed this, but Sekou's replacement, Ken Sugiura, had a nice, quick blurb two blogs ago.
It'll be interesting to see how Joe Johnson fares. As I wrote earlier this week, he is in a pretty decent slump. Mike Woodson conceded that some of the misses have been forced, but is going to keep riding him. Said Woodson, "when he's making those forced shots, nobody's saying a [darn] thing."
Ahhhh, Woody. You don't need to tell us. You clearly do not coach to what people are saying since you have done things for years that people despise. So don't say you are going to deny the problem based on the every fan reaction to Joe's makes. You never listen to the fan. If you did, two fouls would not be a foul letter word. Honestly, if it took a few fan gripes on a blog to question Joe's shot taking, I would be more confused than ever.
And I very much get that nearly every shot by Joe Johnson is forced. Forced does not mean bad. When you methodically drive at that slow a pace, you are rarely not going to have a contested shot. Nique remarks "that was a tough shot" after every Joe shot beecause they literally are tough makes. It is a testament to how good he is.
I am all for Joe taking a one on one forced shot. Anytime he drives for a layup, floater, or close jump shot and no one doubles, Joe should have free reign to take that shot. The problem comes when Joe forces the attempt against three defenders, four defenders, every defender. Those are bad shots especially as the players around him have become more capable of scoring efficiently.
And as for the Joe complaints increasing among fans, I can only say Joe Johnson turned down a sizable contract this summer. He wants to be a max contract player. That kind of contract will set the Hawks into a certain style of team and with a specific ceiling for the next five years. That kind of contract is no longer a necessary tax the Hawks franchise has to pay. Earning that kind of money will be a different ride for Joe than it was last time. It will have new expectations and criticisms. That kind of money with the team around Joe is championship money.
Going four on one time after time and hogging the ball is perfectly fine max contract play for a guy on a 30 win team. But the Hawks want to win fifty something win team, and Joe is auditioning for franchise player. So if he is going to play like he wants to be that kind of player but does not change his style from three years ago expect criticism...whether Mike Woodson does anything about it or not.
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Let's face it Woody is not going to change and needs to be let go
If we keep Joe, he’s gonna over-rely on him like always.
If we let Joe go, Woodson wouldn’t know what to do on Offense.
by coachkcastellon on Dec 4, 2009 10:35 AM EST reply actions
I agree with that. I don’t think Joe is uncoachable a la Iverson. Woody’s offense (or lack thereof) allows Joe to take bad shot after bad shot. A better coach would create an offense where Joe might score fewer points per game but have more assists. The Hawks have a lot of offensive firepower now. It’s not 2006 anymore where they need Joe to score 25 a night, but I’m not sure Woody has figured that out yet.
Joe the Max
Hawksdawg. Please let me know. Who is a better player Joe or Brandon Roy ?? If Brandon got a max and Joe clearly outplayed him twice this year, why is Joe not worth a max contract.?. No one complained when Roy ot a max in the off season.
I dont think a max will put a ceiling on the Hawks progression. The team as constituted WILL BE A CHAMPIONSHIP CONTENDER IN 2 YEARS with a little twick.The Celtics and Magic will get older – as in over the hill older, the Cavs will not have a center. The Hawks will continue to get better. Not resigning Joe will BE A HUGE mistake. There is no doubt that the Hawks will have to give Joe a max deal to keep him..NY, MIAMI,CLEVELAND will have the money and will be waiting patiently for our slip up.
I'm fine with Joe to a max contract
IF we get a new coach.
by coachkcastellon on Dec 4, 2009 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
with the surrounding talent
joe living up to a max contract should make the hawks a championship contender.
i am not saying joe is less than great. I am not saying he deserves 40 million. He deserves a very good contract, but if he thinks, a player deserves max money on a very good team playing average defense (at best) and shooting 9-23 from the field, he has another thing coming.
the knicks might pay max for that type of play but if the Hawks do, they are saying we think this team has a ceiling over the conference championship (at the very best).
that being said, i have seen Joe play great defense. I have seen him share the ball with the best. I have seen him score in bunches. I have seen him rebound well. max players put it all together.
joe gets four guys on him because he is really good. max players don’t just get theirs though, they make others better. so far this season, joe, for the most part, is just getting his. does not make him a bad player (shoot it still makes him a high fifty million dollar player), just does not make him a max contract.
basically if joe wants max money
he needs to put it all together. and he has not. max money is near perfect player. joe has obvious, large flaws right now. fixable ones, but obvious.
Contract
A contract is not based on only the players talent. You also have to look at the demand for the player. If Miami or Cleveland offers Joe a max, it will be unwise for the Hawks not to match. We are in the same conference and getting Joe will put them way ahead of us. We have to consider that also.
If Miami replaces Wade
with Joe, they’re going to be the same team they are now, if not worse. I’m sorry, but their talent is nowhere near that of the Hawks and Dwyane is a better player than Joe.
Haha, that is laughable
Because exactly how do you think they would play both Wade and JJ? Sorry, they don’t need another ball hogging 2 guard and JJ isn’t going to want to go somewhere with other stars, which is why he wanted out of Pheonix remember? The whole issue with JJ is simply a personality thing. He couldn’t stand sharing the spotlight in Pheonix and now that the Hawks have players that can score he is starting to not like sharing that spotlight all over again.
JJ has always and will always be the perfect player for a rebuilding team, like the Nets or the Grizzlies. It gives them a star to build around and it allows him the freedom he desires to be numero uno.
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
JOE WANTED OUT OF PHOENIX BCOS THEY DID NOT WANT TO PAY HIM
They offered him a low ball figure which soured the relationship. Joe is not obsessed with being the man . He has been clamouring for veteran help from the front office for the Hawks since day one.
agree with ya Dkrib...
They undervalued him…had he not gotten hurt they would have beaten the Spurs or pushed them to 7…..Amare was dominating Duncan, and JJ was posting everybody they sent his way…then the Suns insulted him with a low $$ contract…he was like forget it and told them don’t even worry about matching the Hawks offer
but it's not just Joe vs. Roy out there...
they have teammates. And there is the idea that your best player should help make his teammates better, and does Joe do that?
Does Roy make his team mates better ???
Or does he do a better job of making his team mates batter?? Clearly not
roy has led his team to a fifty win season in a harder conference
he is also 3 years younger and has played roughly 15,000 less minutes.
and again, i am not saying joe will not/should not get max money or comparing him to other players. i am saying he think he should based on rejecting this summer’s deal. and if that is the case, he should step up his play. if he did (which he could), pay him his money.
but to say Joe deserves max money, can never be criticized, and has no flaw is foolish.
I personally...
would never say any player shouldn’t be criticized or think they have no flaws. I honestly don’t think the west is a harder conference. If that were so the Lakers and the Spurs wouldn’t be the only ones winning championships in their conference.
Besides all of that it seems everyone is jumping down Joe’s throat because he hasn’t signed a contract. I think if your for Joe, you hope the Hawks bring him back or find someone suitable, which would probably be a max contract player. If you don’t like him, this is an ideal season for you to speculate who will be that max player to put the Hawks into contention.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
He thinks he should based on the demand for his talent.
and make no mistake about it. There are teams lining up for his talent.
I don't think he'll be worth it...
maybe for the first two years of a deal, but not the last 2-3. I’d rather move on and try and fill the hole going forward with a younger guy that fits Teague—??—Marvin—Smith—Horford.
Except
You seem to forget that he already turned down a huge deal worth 15mil per. Right now he is clearly not playing anywhere near that value. It doesn’t matter what anyone else got if the player in question isn’t living up to their current contract much less what theycould potentially earn in the future.
"Big Ten can have this challenge. Duke loses, we all win..."
-Marcus Ginyard, G - UNC
Until Joe consistently
shows that killer instinct that the true superstar players have I can’t get behind them giving him 80 or 90 mil. It’s ridiculous. Joe has a lot of basketball miles on him and there are a lot of big games where he disappears. Show me you can consistently put this team on your back and go head to head, toe to toe with the best and come out on top. I want joe back, but for the right price.
That translates
To him actually being fast to the lane. Kobe, lebron, wade all have basketball miles on them as well. But the difference between them and Joe is speed to the rack and getting to the foul line.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
My thing is this
I understand joe johnson is a great player, that is a tad slow driving to the lane, that sometimes forces shots, that gets the ball in insurmountable double teams, that gets way too many minutes, and fans expect more out of him this year. I still think he is a max contract (with a new offense or new coach) out of the possible three max contracts next year; D.Wade, Lebron James, and Joe Johnson.
Since Kobe already signed he’s out of the question. Brandon Roy isn’t an option now, Chris Bosh can sometimes play too soft. I wished this off-season Joe Johnson would work on his foot speed to the lane but oh well
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
Seems like Joe was at his best
3 or 4 years ago, when the Hawks weren’t relevant so teams didn’t spend a lot of time figuring out how to stop him.
For a large portion of last year and almost all games this year, teams are (at least sometimes) throwing the immediate double team at JJ when he catches the ball. JJ is very compliant in these situations-he tries to dribble out of trouble and force his way in, and if that doesn’t work, he retreats to half court and then tries to reset. Seldom does he respond with a quick pass out to swing the ball around-if he did, Marvin would end up with a lot more open threes than he’s getting.
But there’s some signs of hope. Against Toronto, he was penetrating and passing out a ton during the first half. If you take out the last three possessions he was on the court (3 forced shots, all missed) he was 5-8 for 12 points and 11 assists. That’s a completely acceptable night for any of the top franchise players in the league. He does draw a ton of defensive attention, he just needs to exploit it instead of battling against it.
Low blow Joe. Low blow.
Few were content with Joe not signing a contract extension in the off season. I was indifferent. The size of that contract reasonable, likable, and tradable so if he signed who cares. When he did not sign I saw it as a perfect opportunity to show who the real Joe Johnson is. I don’t hate the guy if you met on the street and you decided to talk bad about Joe you wold probably loose the argument. Joe is Joe though and since he was our apparent savior from the depths of darkness we still are in the hangover phase of what is Joe. Joe is a ball hog always has been always be, don’t be lulled asleep by his slow dribble. What makes it worst is that his desire to hold onto the ball has increased since his teammates have gotten better.
I would like to blame it on Woody, but Joe himself has said I don’t want to come out and I have heard clips of Woody saying pass the ball drive to the basket. And the first person to pull up and take a contested jumper or not dribble the air out of the ball is joe. That’s what separates him from all the other stars. They want a good team around them so they can’t be double teamed. Joe wants to be double teamed so he can make an amazing play and be Joe johnson. And the tired thing come playoff time is over D Wade, Kobe, and Carmelo, played nothing, but competitive basketball for like two straight years and in the aggregate they have all out performed joe in the playoffs.
How about this let's speculate now....
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=FreeAgents-09-10
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
Leader vrs Leader
Time will tell about how everything shakes out but Josh seems to be emerging into that 2nd leader. If he makes the all defensive team and becomes an all-star his cred rises through the roof. If you notice his interviews he always talks about unselfish play. While I don’t believe he is taking on JJ directly, I think he is indirectly. What is not to like about playing unselfish.
JJ has not lost this team and still commands great respect but times are a changing and he needs to change with them. Games like last night following bad shooting performances by JJ might bring this to a head.
I would offer JJ the same contract and not a dime more except for -
A million a year extra if his assists per game was in the 7 range and his FG% stays over .450 including the playoffs. This would force JJ to be the player we need. Less scoring and more team play.
by RivBoatGambler on Dec 4, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
Another blog I posted at the AJC
Said coach Mike Woodson, “Guys are sacrificing the basketball, and that’s how it’s got to be offensively.”
For the first time this year (any recent year?, ever?) the post players got more shot attempts than back court. For the big’s to get the ball there has to be a concerted effort by the guards to pass and against Toronto, pass they did. Players from the Hawks left their chicken scratches all over the assist column with big time JJ digging for 11.
The other three guards came up with 11 on a night of excellent ball movement and unselfish play. Even “cheeseburger/pork chop” Collins got in on the act with 2.
JJ is the team leader and that will not change. He can lead us to ISO stat stuffing or playing within himself and “sacrificing” for the good of the team. Last night was his best game of the year showing true leadership. When JJ plays within himself the team will follow and grow. Was this game the catalyst for change or an aberration, who knows, it does seem like when we have a “feed a big day”, good things happen.
I just want to
reiterate that I am not anti Joe Johnson. I’ve been one of his biggest supporters, but I’m not going to be happy if the Hawks throw $80 million dollars at him at the end of this season if he hasn’t led the Hawks to a LEGITIMATE chance of winning a championship. If they get swept in the second round again, then we clearly know the ceiling of this team as presently constructed or as presently utilized. I don’t want the Hawks to get caught up like sooooo many teams paying a guy Max money and then not having enough to tweak their roster so that they’re actually competing for a title. This team hasn’t even completely sorted out who owns it yet, so if you think they’re going to just go over the salary cap without a second thought you’re crazy. At some point they do have to re up with Al. $15 million per for Joe is more than enough. I will stand by that from now until forever. He thinks he’s worth more, if I’m the Hawks org. at the end of this season if we aren’t at least in the ECF, I tell him to go get it.
But for a team to compete, you have to go over the cap. That is just the reality
All the teams above the Hawks are well over the cap. If the Hawks are serious about competing, They will have to go over the cap. That is just the reality of the NBA. So resiginig Joe and Al can be done.
Josh and Smooth........... Joe and Dick (Johnson)
I like the way we use Josh for the bad decisions and Smooth for the good plays. It is time for JJ to recieve the same treatment. Joe for the good plays and Dick (Johnson) for the bad plays.
I'll cosign that.....
I’m sure there will be a lot of Dick Johnson thrown around on this blog tonight. Go Hawks!!
Look at Houston, they lost McGrady and Yao and still put a good team on the floor. In another year JJ may conceivable be the third best player on the team with Jamal not to far behind. Al and Josh are playing great and still have upside potential. To me I would stay with that same 15 million for JJ.
In the last game we saw just how important JJ can be when he plays unselfish team ball. Don’t get me wrong, I love JJ, I just think can get to that next level of elite status much quicker with JJ playing a different role. Co Co has a great point, we can’t lose players in the future because we are over paying JJ.
I am a huge jj fan
And I’m usually saying “he doesn’t want money” and “he wants to prove himself” and I still believe it but now I sorda think its of course money but more about the elite status he wants. If he just plays like he did in Houston he should be fine. jj is valuable to the team because they built it around him but all in all jj knows what’s wrong and has to fix it. only he can. woody started and jj has to figure out how to finish it with his “Joe cool Joe smooth” personality. nasty attitude n ball hog=wade. uh. no
by Hawksgirl on Dec 4, 2009 6:16 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I do know this....Lottery picks are history!
And as the Hawks win 50+ games this year and so on the next few years, those picks get lower and lower. We can cry all we want about what Joe should get or achieve. At the end of the day the front office needs to make the right decision of whom to replace him with if they let him go.
Joe’s already made his bed. So it may be out of their hands to keep him. Now what? Do they seek a low pick first rounder? How bout another high dollar vet? Now is this our go to guy now? All I’m saying is I like Joe too, even with his faults. Just dont screw up chemistry which takes time to build to a 50+ win team, for the sake of money.
Go Hawks!
" MR.24 "
You guy's are such idiots
Joe is a super good basketball player and CLEARLY the number 1 option on HIS team, Every now and then that does require a lil “Ball Hogging” GET OVER IT!! This dude has improved the record of HIS team every year since he’s been in Atlanta and you clowns still aren’t satisfied. Joe is gonna get 20-25 points a night, How he does that is HIS prerogative. You hear all these comments about “Unselfish” etc from people who aren’t very good! GREAT PLAYERS and number 1 options get to do a lil hogging sometimes, sure somebody else may be open, SO WHAT, in the 4th quarter in the clutch, most of those guys are NO WHERE to be found! SO WHAT IF HE DIDN’T GIVE IT TOO HIM IN THE CORNER in the 3rd quarter! You clowns are just as bad as these whimsical announcers! If he does pass to these lower tier players in the 4th and they miss, Yall are the same clowns that would say he should have kept it!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! So funny most people who comment about sports and have such profound opinions where NEVER any good at it!! GET A LIFE!! JOE JOHNSON IS THE MAN!! Doesn’t argue, gets it done, no tabloids, no nothing and you douche bags are still unhappy!! Here’s what you do…Tell Joe if he takes the same money we will bring in Byron Scott and trade Marvin Williams for Carlos Boozer to finally move Horford to the 4spot!! That’s what you clowns need to be blogging about!!
by The Talented Mr.Dickey on Dec 5, 2009 1:17 AM EST reply actions
Because great players...
like say Michael Jordan, never pass to lesser, but open teammates in the late seconds. Lesser guys like say Craig Hodges, Steve Kerr, and John Paxson. Yeah, great players like Michael Jordan and Joe Johnson should never pass to the scrubs around them.
Ummm............okay
I’m pretty sure I didn’t hear any comments about not appreciating jj or saying that he isn’t great because he is. its just that when he plays to his full potential in one game then does the opposite in the next its frustrating. all stars have their own style of play an we all know Joe is smooth and quiet. He is a beast in the lane and we have seen isolation Joe at its best and worst. but obviously if that play isn’t working in a particular game why keep going to it.Were stating opinions, not coaching
by Hawksgirl on Dec 5, 2009 4:27 PM EST via mobile reply actions
JJ is a very good player but JJ is not the reason we have improved so much over the past 4 years. Josh is having an all star year with Al on the cusp. We also have added Jamal.
When play our best we play inside out, not ISO, no ball movement offense. We still love JJ but the team around him has grown. Times are a changing. Time for JJ to change with them.
Joe has to do what he does
Remember people Joe is the reason why some of these players came here or stayed here. He was the only player that was performing and the only reason people mentioned us. When he is aggressive he makes the game easier for Marvin, Josh, Bibby, etc. Sometimes its not making the shot…its taking the shot that makes teams nervous about him and have to double. That opens up things for the other players…there are times when it looks like he should pass the ball…but he also has to put pressure on the refs to give him that “Jordan” call. Wade gets it..Lebron, Kobe…Now with that said I can’t give him max money..but i would go up on the offer…and set my sights on Amare or Bosh…and trade Marvin…starters: Bibby, Joe, Josh, Horford, Amare/Bosh….and the Hawsk win the East in 2010-2011 season
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