Chicago Bulls 101, Atlanta Hawks 98 or Joe Johnson tries his hat at 06-07 Kobe Bryant
by hawksdawgs on Dec 19, 2009 11:58 PM EST
29 comments
Oddly enough, Kirk Hinrich and Taj Gibson were the difference in this game. That and four horrible jump shots by Josh Smith.
Now I understand the desire to go crazy over the Joe Johnson show. There was way too much Joe Johnson. Especially when Al Horford was having a perfectly fine game and Joakim Noah had five fouls for what felt like the last 20 minutes of the game. I get that feeling. The Hawks probably could have used some more ball movement and diversity. And despite what Nique says, a fade away two point jump shot with a hand at your chin is not a good shot. I understand all this.
But with all that said, Joe really did have the advantage. Outside a few forced shots (and you are going to have a few when you shoot 32 of them), Joe could have made near every one of those looks. That last missed layup was so good my buddy and I were talking about how he went too soon in the game clock. Joe got his looks. He passed to open shooters. But Bibby missed open shots, Marvin missed open shots. And Josh took open shots.
On the other side of the ball, the Bulls did what we wanted them to do, only they succeeded. Rose, Taj, and Kirk hit jump shot after jump shot. Hats off to them. They deserved to win.
On a night when our defense forced them into jump shots, they hit them. VDN played one on one defense knowing Joe could get his shot and banking on the fact that he would not always hit it. Del Negro was right. And without any real help for Joe, every possession mattered for the Hawks and we wasted too many.
A lot of what ifs were left on the table, but I am going to answer the ones with blame toward the guys that did not score 40 points on 50% shooting.
The Hawks won't win them all. And that includes the ones they should. But anger tonight. Perspective tomorrow. Go Hawks!
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We played last year's basketball.
We’ve won six straight games in dominating fashion because we got everybody involved. The Bulls relied heavily on Rose because honestly he’s their only threat. We don’t have that problem anymore. But we didn’t play like it tonight. The Joe Johnson show was unnecessary. We have five real threat on the floor 90% of the time. At some point, you have to realize they’re gonna throw everything at Joe but the kitchen sink. It took all they had to beat us so hats off to them. Whether Joe was interviewing for a job or no, I don’t know but it sure seemed like it. One question: did we not have any timeouts left when Rose missed his free throws? It was two seconds left to work with.
by dstdeelite on Dec 20, 2009 1:04 AM EST via mobile reply actions
2 Reasons We Lost
1.) It became the Joe Johnson show. That is the #1 reason why we lost. We had no ball movement and no rhythm on offense because we just wanted to stand around and watch joe go 1 on 1 with the Bulls. Anytime Joe scores that many points it is a bad sign for the Hawks.
2.) Josh Smith foul trouble. Josh is the most important person on this team. Without him in the game for a large number of minutes we are only an average team. We were running away with the game in the first quarter then when he had to come out of the game for a long period of time we couldn’t control rebounds or the paint at all.
We missed Joe tonight
Josh smith is going to get into foul trouble every now and then, but when he does, we need to have some size inside to make up for him not being out there. if joe smith was availible, we probably would have won this easily. the bulls sensed that they could go inside and get layups and short jumpers during the second and third quarter and they were right. if woodson isn’t going to stay big by putting randolph morris in the game, then we are going to have to hope for 50% FG% and that joe smith comes back sooner than expected.
i didn´t see the game
but in the box score Chicago dominated the glass with the same guys they lost with in the previous hawks-bulls game. Joe Johnson scoring 40 points doesn´t mean anything except that they couldn´t stop him. And apparently the hawks couldn´t stop Rose. If you can´t stop penetration you have to stop the shot.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
And this bugs me
Because there were several plays, late in regulation and in overtime, where JJ was playing awesome defense on Rose to keep him covered up so that Chicago couldn’t feed him the ball. But for most of the game, JJ looked unable to slow him down, and even when his defense picked up, all they had to do was run one screen, and we’d switch so that Josh/Zaza/Bibby ended up guarding him.
And Josh Smith can really kill momentum very quickly
Hawks had one possession in OT where they kept getting offensive rebounds while bodies were flying all around fighting for them. Josh had a good look inside that he missed, then he gets it back and tries to a really awkward lay-up in traffic, and then after securing that rebound, the ball swung through everybody, stopped in Josh’s hands, where he pulled up for a 20 footer. All of that effort only to have the possession end with our worst shooter putting up a jumpshot with 18 seconds on the shot clock.
It’s also a problem that, while Noah was killing us on the glass late, we didn’t really run plays at him when he got his fifth foul. Really, really should have put Horford to work on him, to see if he was going to play soft to avoid fouling out, or make him commit that 6th foul and get him out of there.
I totally agree
We’ve been saying all along that this team goes as Josh goes. They have to get him going early to keep his head in the game. You’d think somebody would have figured that out by now. JJ tried to attack Noah late in the game, but couldn’t convert. We should have gone to Crawford late in the fourth. He can take just about anybody off the dribble. It looked like we panicked in the end. The foul fest began and it was over.
by dstdeelite on Dec 20, 2009 12:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
the foul trouble tends to kill Josh...
he really seems like a rhythm player to me, in that every time he has to sit for 8-10+ minutes straight for foul trouble, he plays very poorly when he gets back on the floor. Every now and then, he makes a big hustle play on D, but his O really gets out of kilter when he has to sit for long stretches due to fouls.
On the game...
I missed most of this and I think I am glad for it. The end was very disheartening. The back to back thing just should not be as much of an issue when no one plays 30 minutes the night before-Josh only played three quarters, so what is the excuse for a game like that?
The offense just became what I still fear what will happen any time the Hawks are in a close game in the playoffs. Joe Johnson is not good enough to make the shots he took when defended by two or three guys, and his inability to get to the free-throw line in those late-game situations is the single biggest thing that separates him from true closers like Pierce, Kobe, LeBron, Duncan, Dirk.
This game mostly showed me how imortant josh is.
Noah dominated for stretches of this game, and I’m sure that wouldn’t have happened (at least to that degree) if Josh had been there. We made a concentrated effort to go to Al, and he responded, but we just didn’t have enough rebounding to keep a comfortable lead.
They played great down the stretch, but if not for the foul trouble to Josh, I don’’t htink this game would have been close enough for that to matter.
And Josh Smith took open shots
Hahahah! Hilarious. My biggest gripe with the game was how they used or didn’t use Al in the 4th. The Bulls couldn’t guard him in the third, I have no reason to feel like that would have changed in the fourth, but whatever. Also, the inexplicable benching of Jamal during key moments when the Hawks needed a basket. He was the 3rd leading scorer last night, yet he was benched. Games like this are why Woody has not been extended. You don’t get to see how good a coach is when your team is winning by 30. These close games tell the tale. Is Josh Smith normally a must have late in games? Sure, but all things considered they played well without him. It wasn’t his night and the Hawks very well could have won this game without him. The coach has to recognize these things.
Glad to have a loss like this to a mediocre opponent to remind the guys that
they have to bring it every night. Still, as poorly as we played and as little energy as we had, the game was over if Jamal does not try that 1-on-3 drive that resulted in a charge with about 2:30 left. If he just pulls it out and runs clock, we win by 6-8. That play totally changed the game. But, that is what you get with Jamal.
Sorry, it was with 3:15 left, Hawks up by 7
3:40 88-81 Joakim Noah defensive rebound
3:31 88-81 Josh Smith blocks Derrick Rose’s layup
3:31 Al Horford defensive rebound 88-81
3:15 Jamal Crawford offensive foul (Luol Deng draws the foul) 88-81
3:15 Jamal Crawford turnover 88-81
You can play that game if you want
but any play that we make at any point in that game would have secured a victory. A Chicago fan can say the same thing. But I’m not concerned with what happened on one play. We shouldn’t have let it get close enough for that to matter.
We just had a bad shooting night from a few key guys, and we couldn’t match-up with Noah because our best interior guy was sitting on the bench with foul trouble. Other than that we had the same problem we normally do, i.e. e can’t match up with quick guards, and we don’t get out and pressure long range shots.
Tough game
Well most what folks say on this thread is right on. Not having Josh in the game for critical parts, which impact him as related to the flow of the game, is right on.
I like Woody, but have to agree, we are a better team than we were 2-3 years ago, when at end of games, everyone in the arena knows we are going to JJ. Yes that was a good shot with JJ near the end, but can we please move the ball around. Draw option 2 and option 3 if option 1 which should be JJ does not work. That one on one stuff is the reason that Barkley and his co-horts put Hawks down. Because any body, and I mean even the greatest one on one player, Kobe, can be stopped. There is a reason Lakers were not winning until they added more pieces in the post Shaq era. Woody has time to correct that this year, but if he takes no action on that account, I am afraid we need a coach that can be more mature and treat the Hawks as MEN as opposed to boys with a ring leader.
I remember a long time ago, in another galaxy (sounds like Star Wars) with another Hawks team that was great. Nique/Carr/Levingston/spuddy/Willis/tree/Doc (he will never be a Celtics man) Rivers/Wittman. That team got to a peak with Fratello as coach. At some point in time, Fratello could not see that those Hawks had matured. Woody is getting close to that fork in the road. Treat the Hawks as a almost mature team and draw up plays for them, or wait till end of this year and then lose your job. Hawks are now MEN not boys.
I totally agree with someone on this thread, you don’t see how great a coach is when you are winning by 20-30. A game we should not have lost, even with having Josh in trouble, but Woody, this one is on you.
At the very least,
Teague could be used as a specialist here: He can dribble past anyone. At that point he either gets to the rim and gets fouled because the D didn’t rotate off of Joe or Bibby to get to him….or the defense does rotate to him and he dishes to JJ/MB/JC for a better shot.
But Joe is a really mediocre finisher at the rim and he doesn’t get to the line. He is really good at pull-up and running twos. He is really good at posting up smaller players one-on-one, which you can do only if there’s no help. That’s his game (and the latter would work better if players were cutting to the rim or the spotting up at the three-point line and he passed the ball, like he’s been doing very well the last two weeks). He is very limited at end-of-game strategy and the need to post up to “get the play going” means the whole rest of the offense just stands around. But here’s a thought—why not run a play to get him the ball later in the possession? Or tell him to pass the g-d ball??
I hope this was an anomaly, but I fear it is not and will cost the Hawks more games than just this one.
Vision
What remains to be seen, is the vision that the relatively new GM, Sund, will have for the Hawks. So far, the biggest moves Sund has made have been letting Childress go, and maintaining status quo by signing the existing players to longer terms, keeping Woody around, and tweaking/improving the bench.
One can argue Hawks did not need much grander vision. I am glad if that is the case, the last time we tried to tweak, it was a disaster, Isiah "Thug" Rider for Steve Smith, giving up Al Harrington/Mookie/Dikembe for nothing. Trading away Rasheed for zero. Before that, we got smart, and gave up the one player who still defines us to this day, for what, Manning. Giving up Dominque the Manigfique all Heart every night he played, was the stupidest move ever.
Why I bring all this up, the Monday after a tough loss, after some coffee, I am glad of the team we still have. As much as we may not like Billy Knight, he had a vision, a vision that some may say we are paying for, but a vision nevertheless. Because of that, having a long athletic team made of forwards and a big shooting guard, and a serviceable point guard, we have what we have. And I FOR ONE AM GLAD FOR IT. One loss to the Bulls does not erase the GREAT team we have. This team has brought an old timer like me back to support and love the Hawks as I did in the 80s. the passion and good people we have as players is what draws us together.
So now we lose to Bulls, and I wonder about the Sund vision thing. Though JJ is not perfect, many teams would jump at having him. Looking at Bulls and their superb Rose of a player, it occurred to me, they lost a great shooting guard in B Gordan to Detroit. wow if they had him. Wow if they can get a great shooting guard in JJ. Now one can say Chicago also needs big men, but they also need a shooting guard to complement the Rose man. Since they won’t be able to get Wade (Miami will never let that happen), and because LeBron is a NY player already, there are two players on Chicago radar. Bosh and JJ. I don’t want to lose JJ, no matter what happens. He is not perfect, but he makes Hawks a great team. I don’t want to think of the Hawks without him, because I am afraid. I am afraid that we start down the road of dismantling something that is beautiful to watch even if not perfect.
So it brings me to Sund. Does he do status quo and keep Woody. If Woody is the cause of these players not improving like against the Bulls. Or does Sund have a vision. Is the vision to bow his head to an ownership group that is stingy, or do as Billy did, and not shake the hand of the owner that was going against Billy’s vision, in the process building a team the way he wanted. I say, having a vision, even if faulty is better than not having a vision at all. Sund, show us your hand. What is your vision? JJ and Woody, are going to define you. Thoughts?
I agree
One game does or lost doesn’t make me doubt the hawks winning ability. the have so many weapons that its hard o watch when they aren’t used properly. JJ is important whether its the points, leadership, or his relationship with the whole team. He is valuable and we do need him and I know Chicago would want him and even a team like the nets to build around him. but jj is ours and should stay that way. Go Hawks!
by Hawksgirl on Dec 21, 2009 1:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I agree
One game does or lost doesn’t make me doubt the hawks winning ability. the have so many weapons that its hard o watch when they aren’t used properly. JJ is important whether its the points, leadership, or his relationship with the whole team. He is valuable and we do need him and I know Chicago would want him and even a team like the nets to build around him. but jj is ours and should stay that way. Go Hawks!
by Hawksgirl on Dec 21, 2009 1:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Good stuff
JJ and Woody are going to define themselves. I’m all for re-signing Joe, but it has to make sense. I can’t say that enough. Joe is not an 18-20 million dollar player (well he hasn’t been thus far, we’ll see what happens at the end of the season) This team in my opinion should be in the ECF at the end of this season if we’re going to just keep things as they are. Saturday night reinforced why Sund is making Woody coach for his contract. The blowouts are great, but you don’t know who your coach is until he has to make adjustments in crunch time. Completely ignoring Al Horford in the fourth quarter was not a good strategy. I know Joe had it going, but like I mentioned earlier, Al established himself in the 3rd quarter and the Hawks totally went away from it and therefor had no shot at fouling Noah out. Also, Josh being in foul trouble was actually not a bad thing for a lot of this game. You’ll find no bigger Josh Smith defender than me, but I think the Hawks could have won this game without him. He missed layup after layup and jump shot after jumpshot. All those shots he came in taking should have gone to Al. It’s just one loss, but it’s a loss that could have been avoided.
I didn't see the game
But from the highlights it does look like jj was trying and when people are “off” there isn’t much you can do but try to get them hot or win at the free throw line. To me smooth being hot depends on his ability to block, steal, and score in the paint. Jumpshots for him are lucky. But hey only the second lost, lets get it back hawks! On to Minnesota! Go Hawks!
by Hawksgirl on Dec 21, 2009 1:59 PM EST via mobile reply actions
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