Detroit Pistons 94, Atlanta Hawks 88 or where Ben Wallace makes a concerted effort to out rebound an entire team
by hawksdawgs on Nov 29, 2009 4:13 PM EST
38 comments
Out rebounded, out schemed, out hustled, out executed, out coached. To actually go through each facet would be absurd. It would certainly over reach since the Hawks are not as bad as they showed this afternoon. Which is a good thing, since they were New Jersey Nets bad today.
Rebounding of course told the story of the game. Detroit had 24 offensive rebounds. Atlanta had 27 total rebounds. That is like your friend dating more super models than you have seen in magazines. The front court was out hustled to be sure and the Pistons took advantage of the refs propensity to not blow the whistle for either side. Still, it is tough to put the onus on Al Horford and Josh Smith alone. At least they were forced to give some effort. They battled on box outs and had to play help defense on slashing guards. None of the front court even tried. I cannot say I ever expect much from Mike Bibby or Jamal Crawford so maybe Joe and Marvin get the wrath simply for being guilty of expectations but they were the most pathetic players in a pretty darn pathetic game.
Between Marvin and Joe, they had four total rebounds. Marvin was timid and Joe was disinterested, and when it comes to defense, I have no time for either. That is worse than ball hogging or cold shooting or bad shot selection. It is just poor effort, and I hope the team looks at the film and finds it unacceptable and gives a little post game newspaper quote saying so.
The Hawks were outplayed. There is enough blame to go around for weeks. I could do a 72 part series on it. To say one guy deserves it more, how this was a loss of coaching or Joe or even rebounding is a bit absurd. After all, the Hawks were a fast break away from having a chance to win this game despite all the horribleness. No one person was to blame. Everyone was to blame.
What I don't get is how little Mike Woodson adjusted to the universal horribleness. Bad shooting nights will happen, rebounding mismatches spring up, every non exceptional NBA player mails in a game or four during the season. I get that. I don't freak out about that. But the Hawks basically played seven guys. They literally played seven guys after halftime. I just don't understand the "well they got us into this mess, they need to get us out" style of coaching.
Yes, the Hawks starters were better than the Pistons, but not when Detroit is getting two shots every time down the court. Mike Woodson let it happen for the entire game. He hoped it would change. That was his strategy. And that...that is not coaching. I don't think Joe Smith or Jason Collins are going to win us many games, but this might have been the one where it actually happened. I don't know how well we could have held up offensively with Maurice Evans in the game, but I know he would have skied for rebounds. And I am not sure how effective the half court sets would have been with Jeff Teague in the game, but I know he is quick enough to keep a Piston guard in front of him more than one out of every four drives so Horford and Josh did not have to go flying off their man every time.
The bench might not have won the game, but the Hawks lost anyway and they lost the same way for four quarters. If your game plan is "play our six players the way we always play them," well I guess you can chalk today up as hiccup in an other wise perfect strategy.
In the end, the Hawks did not deserve to win, the fact that it was close just represents how ridiculously bad this lose really was. They certainly happen, it just does not help the psyche of the fans or team any time it happens. And really, you can only waste so many 11-15 shooting nights from Josh Smith before you start to realize this is a team that will live by Joe Johnson and has no problem dying by him either.
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I missed this game, probably for the better.
Pachulia only played 10 minutes, too. From the boxscore it looks like maybe thinking about playing Pachulia and Horford at the same time for once might have been ok, especially conisdering your comments about JJ (5-19) and Marv (plus/minus: -18).
It’s beginning to look a lot like Christmas…and the Hawks are reverting to their old bad habits…wish I had a rhyme, but this is too much of a downer for me to think of one.
I will admit
I can always make excuses for Marvin. My excuse this game. His decrease in playing time is being met with a lack of desire.
I can always make a case for Mike Woodson to be fired, but I won’t.
I will say that the Bibby, Crawford, Johnson, Smoove, and Horford line up is great when we have leads.
But when we don’t it doesn’t matter how hot we are that is not the lineup that should be out there. That line up will at best give up a score on every possession they score on.
PLay Marvin and increase your length or play teague and increase your speed
Joe Johnson I go to bat for you against all the naysayers, but this one on five attitude has got to stop. your the man we all know this, but I liked you better in walking into a three. or catching the ball off a screen and making a play in about five seconds not fifteen.
Go changes Go Hawks
Great Post
Tell it like it is. I like that. Players win games, but onus should always be on the coach for letting the team beat themselves.
" MR.24 "
This is the kind of game
where you miss Flip. Jamal is definitely an upgrade, but Flip did NOT defer to Joe. Everyone else does so willingly. This is a problem when Joe isn’t playing well.
The Whatchamacallit that Flip and Mario Brings!
I certainly thought of Flip and Mario this game. The Hawks were missing that thing that Mario and Flip brought to the team. I just don’t quite know what to call it. Josh Smith was trying to bring it and I remember hearing him tell the team come all yall let’s do this. Well he didn’t say that exactly.
by DPhenomenal1 on Dec 1, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
I definitely don't miss Mario
Even ISO-Joe beats 4 on 5 basketball
by coachkcastellon on Dec 1, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
At this point I wish we just bit the bullet and extended Mike Woodson so he hopefully could have the courage to go to his bench and try something new and not worry about how he needs to run Joe and the starters to the ground in order to keep his job.
by coachkcastellon on Nov 29, 2009 7:55 PM EST reply actions
Joe had a bad game
But I don’t see how that hurt of worse than the pathetic rebounding effort did. If we had done even a little bit better on the defensive glass we would have won this game. That goes on everyone’s darling big men.
i think josh and al should take blame
they were outplayed by ben wallace. i wish we had mixed up our front court to see how we could match up better.
but Marvin, Joe, Bibby, and Crawford did nothing to help. al and josh were at least fighting, if fighting ineffectively. The other guys? They did not crash the boards, they did not box their guy out, they did not fight for loose balls.
agreed
We are only an elite team when we beat the other team on the boards. And it does have to be a team effort the way we are constructed. If you look at the stats for the game, we would have blown the pistons out today if we had limited them to one shot a possession.
There were a lot of missed shots to go around today though, all 10 rebound games are not created equally.
Collins & Joe Smith
Didn’t we pick them up for veteran leadership on D and crashing the Glass!?
Why no time Woodson!?
You know what might keep our bigs motivated?
Feeding them the damn ball on offense. There are certain players in this league who will do the dirty work with no complaints, no expectations of being rewarded. Al is one of those players, Josh is not. Perhaps they’re a little less inclined to hustle when Joe is shooting them out of the game. Josh had it going early, he was the offense and yet play after play Joe comes down and shoots a contested jumper. At some point, you knew he was going to throw his hands up and say eff it. That’s where that 3 point attempt came from as the game was winding down. If everyone else (Joe specifically) is entitled to take bad shots, he might as well join in on the fun.
Surely they should hustle anyway, but if they don’t see themselves as dirty work players then they are not going to take kindly to being treated as such.
We are better this year, and Joe’s role has to change. The days when we need him to play great to win are clearly over. He’s still going to be the “man”, but he has to learn when to play more of a team game, and when it’s time to take over. Right now he is still spending way to much time trying to take over.
We have to have Josh hustling and making plays and Joe deferring to his teammates more often to break through the glass ceiling. Half of that is there now. The other half is still a work in progress. Whether we break through or depends on whether Josh is still making plays at the end of the season, and how much Joe grows as an on court leader.
For now I’m going to choose to be patient and see how it plays out. But I don’t think you can blame this specific game on Joe unless your blaming him for not rebounding
by thirdfALCON on Nov 29, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
My gripes with Joe
aren’t even about this loss, but this loss did highlight the things that have been and will be a problem going forward. Even in some of the games the Hawks won, they had to do so despite some 6-18 nights from Joe. He needs to check that.
You know what might keep our bigs motivated? Feeding them the damn ball on offense.
Love your post.
by RivBoatGambler on Nov 30, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
Unbelievable
That is the only word I can use to describe this latest debacle. The fact that we played oh so poorly and we were only beat by six points, tells the story. The Pistons gave 200% and pulled out a win. We were definitely the better team on paper, but not today on the court. I’m not sure what’s up with JJ, but something has to give. His vanishing act is egregious. I know that he’s our “franchise” player, but Woody needs to grow a pair. Why would you run a play for JJ in crunch time and you know he’s struggling? That’s exactly what happened in the waning moments of the game. The cherry on top was the 3 pointer by Josh at the end. If I could have reached through my tv, Josh nor Smoove would exist right now. Do I think the Hawks overachieved in the first few games? No I don’t. Nothing was handed to these guys in the first 16 games. They went out there and scrapped for every win. This is what makes losses like these not only puzzling, but so damn frustrating. If there is beef in the locker room, somebody needs to be man enough to call a spade and spade. For some strange reason, I don’t think JC is the one causing any problems in the locker room. He’s going out there and doing what he’s paid to do: put up shots and try to win the game. At least he is trying. People talk about him being a horrible defender, but I do see an effort on his part to get steals and blocks. Every guy in that locker room needs to look themselves in the mirror and ask, “what more could I have done to help my team win this afternoon?” There is no reason Teague shouldn’t have gotten a little burn today. Why is Jason Collins on the payroll? Is he hurt? Is Woody saving him for Shaq? If so, Shaq is going to eat Jason’s lunch, spit it out, and force feed him with it. Woody needs to watch his back. A coaching change may be coming soon. Go Hawks!!!
I wouldn’t get to worked up about it, there’s 82 of these games, and we are going to lose some.
by thirdfALCON on Nov 29, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions
This just reminds me an awful lot of our collapse last year
Good teams don’t go through major slumps, and if the Hawks expect to crack the top 3 this situation needs resolution.
by coachkcastellon on Nov 29, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
JJ is slumping early and often. I am not so sure he and Jamal can be on the court together.
Stucky and Bynum torched us much like Collison and Thorton did in the last NO game. Seems like a developing trend. If the backcourt has an off shooting night – we lose the ability to defend their backcourt. Bad part about it? These guards are rookies and 2nd year players.
by RivBoatGambler on Nov 30, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
we seem to be doing a pattern of win lose win lose win
It should be more win win win win win lose win win win win. as for jj, I’m starting to hope that he is sick or injured because there is no other excuse. I mean after losing to Orlando he has been acting out of character. I don’t wanna believe he is playing like this on purpose……………
by Hawksgirl on Nov 30, 2009 9:37 AM EST via mobile reply actions
words can't express...
how much i hate that Josh Smith is the only option on the wing when any hawk drives to the basket. Who told him he can shoot? Somebody please tell me! Josh throwing up a jumper is the equivalent of Mike Woodson running on the court and just kicking the ball into the stands.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
Big Al
Detroit 5-9
Philly 5-10
Orlando 1-3
NO 5-10
Houston 6-9
Miami 6-10
Portland 7-10
NO 7-8
Boston 6-9
Lakers 3-8
Washington 4-11
Indiana 11-17
91-162 – .562 FG%
3 pt shots by team
105 – 307
Ya’ll know how I love to talk balance, ball movement and playing inside out. How can anyone not say we should shoot less three pt shots and feed the ball to Al more.
3 pt shots
JJ 25-79
JC 25-85
This is where the shots for Al should come from.
The problem with that is he needs to be moving toward the basket to be effective.
I don’t know where to go to find out what percentage of his baskets are assisted, but I bet it’s fairly high. Most of the rest of his points come of putbacks. He has an effective midrange shot, but I don’t think he is capable of being a good post-up player right now for more than a few possessions a game. He just doesn’t have that many moves.
Glass Still Half Full
The schedule looks better on paper for the next 20 games. My preseason estimate was 50 – 54 wins. To reach the high end of my estimate we can absorb 23 more losses. So far we are on pace to do better. What is not to like. All of us like to play GM or Coach after every loss or win but looking at our record now, before the season started, I think most of us would have taken it. It is the glass half full for me. Lets get the next two games and then prepare for a tough Dallas team.
I blame myself.
I wore my Matt Ryan throwback jersey with my Al Horford jersey over it.
I injured Matt and made the Hawks lose. I apologize.
Curses!
Duff_Man don’t you ever do that again! LOL!
by DPhenomenal1 on Dec 1, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
Now sacfirice a small animal
Like a tree rat or something
by coachkcastellon on Dec 1, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
I am very proud of them and the record
But sometimes they just look like they aren’t focused on the game but I’m very patient and willing to wait til allstar break to say what seed they will be but they’re so puzzling and that also makes them exciting. They are the wildest group in ATL I have ever seen. shoooot in basketball. They mesh so well but are so dysfunctional as individuals……………
by Hawksgirl on Nov 30, 2009 4:57 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Anybody else think...
that when Al or Josh get the ball in the post, they get the ball too far away from the basket? I think Joe has to get the ball like Paul Pierce gets it, but the offense has to move faster.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
neither is really strong enough against their defender..
to get much deeper. It’s hard to post up deep when you give up 20+ pounds and a good bit of strength to the other man.
My dream for the Hawks was Teague, Jamal and JJ driving and dumping to ball off to the bigs. They have the talent to do that. The last few games it seems like more ISO, less passing and more 3pt shots instead.
by RivBoatGambler on Dec 1, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
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