Orlando Magic 93, Atlanta Hawks 76 or where the Hawks gave you a half to digest dinner
by hawksdawgs on Nov 27, 2009 10:10 AM EST
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PrintAt the end of the first quarter, Stan Van Gundy did a mid game interview. Answering a question about how, after hitting their first two three pointers of the game, the Magic had missed a bunch in attempts from beyond the arc, Van Gundy said something along the lines of "We are taking bad shots, not moving the ball inside out."
Now, the Magic were taking bad shots, there were threes hucked at the end of shot clocks and dribbling around without any ball movement and then shooting a jumper, but they were also fairly open shots. The Magic happened to make two and then miss a whole bunch. The two makes by Vince Carter were not any more open than the other misses. Well, Stan did not care. He still did not like them.
Fast forward to the end of the third. The Hawks just gave up a double digit halftime lead and were down two points going into the final quarter. Mike Woodson explains to Craig Saiger how the Hawks were fine. "We are getting open shots and just missing them, and [the Magic] hit some of theirs. We need to get in the bonus quickly."
The Hawks were getting relatively open shots. Josh Smith was missing difficult layups, Joe could not hit his runner, Bibby missed on some jumpers, Zaza could not make shots close to the basket, and Crawford missed from everywhere. None of those shots outside of maybe Zaza and Josh's were hotly contested and those two were close to the rim.
Yet they all came from one on one basketball. Whoever the play was run for was the person who was going to shoot the ball. The ball did not swing from one side of the court to another. It did not move inside out. Every play was a black hole of dribbling and selfishness. Even when a pass did happen, the extra one was certainly not going to be thrown. It was only so often you get a ball from Joe Johnson in that half, you have to take advantage.
And if you want to be really positive, then yes, even in that bad basketball, the Hawks got open shots. But for Woodson not to see the text book offense being run at the other end is more than a little disappointing. To say the third quarter was a difference in who made shots and who did not make them is to call Romeo and Juliet a boy meets girl, boy falls in love with girl little tale. The Hawks offense was stagnant. It allowed Orlando's defense to suffocate because they only had to throw the pillow over one guy.
So after seeing the Hawks play great team basketball in the first half and Orlando fail to, and then watch the Hawks fall into a dribble around and shoot offense and the Magic have fantastic ball movement in the third, we all assumed Woody would see what Stan Van saw in the very first quarter. Open shots are not always good shots. Cut to the Hawks plan and.....
"We need to get in the bonus early."
That was the strategy? That was our fourth quarter plan? Happy Thanksgiving.
Loser Dots
- Al Horford had three shots. One of was a fast break miss. One was a broken play jumper that was blocked and one was a slam dunk on a pick and roll. The other pick and roll ended in a Joe Johnson three. Zaza Pachulia had nine shots. Unless Al Horford plays under twenty minutes due to injury and that injury will keep him out for multiple seasons, this should never happen. One of the only strategies against Dwight Howard is to attack him, especially with guards, and get him in foul trouble. We don't have the guards to necessarily do that, but if you are going to give 12 shots to your center and don't mind 33% shooting, I highly recommend it be to Mr. Horford. He might actually get a foul call.
- That was text book example of how not to use Jamal Crawford. He could hit nothing and we left him to be a defensive liability for almost the entire second half. I guess he could have fit into the "get in the bonus early" strategy.
- Jeff Teague did nearly nothing wrong and played four minutes. But that is cool, we had Anthony Johnson under control.
- On that note, Anthony Johnson looked like Kevin Johnson out there.
- Zaza Pachulia had a three possession run of awesomeness. Unfortunately that was the cheese in a suck sandwich.
- Joe Johnson destroyed Pietrus and Redick in the first half. Hats off to the Magic for allowing Dwight to leave his man when Joe drove to force 25 foot floaters instead of the 12 foot ones that were going in every time. I will keep my hat firmly on for the Hawks and how they refused to even acknowledge that one extra pass would have left Dwight out of possession.
- When bad Josh is playing, even his dunks suck.
- While I have complimented the Magic and their coaching, how does it take a half to realize you have Dwight Howard on your team? If the Hawks had any semblance of offense and say won this game by one, Magic fans would have to be very frustrated. So basically, from a Hawks fan to you, you're welcome.
- Note to self: the double team on Howard worked fairly well, especially when Jamal Crawford and Mike Bibby were not the guys closing out the three point shooter.
- Mike Woodson is losing confidence in Marvin Williams. That is not good for people who want the coach to lose confidence with Jamal Crawford in certain game.
- I like the alternate unis. So I guess there's that.
- The Hawks played a whale of a first half so at least my turkey was thoroughly digested by halftime.
Go Hawks!
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THEY SUCKED
It’s been the first time in years that I’ve seen a Hawks team play so badly… It’s like they reverted back to the “Yellow Jersey” Hawks. GROSS!
This might be a bit too harsh here. It’s November and Orlando played some great D in the 2nd half. As KD said in his ‘behind the boxscore’, there’s plenty for the Hawks to learn from. It’s important that they figure out how to attack Orlando properly for the playoffs, not necessarily right now.
i don't think the second half is who the hawks are
but it is who they were last night.
and they fall into that style of play very easily. so for the coach (and players) to seemingly ignore it does deserve criticism. even if they never play like that again this season.
over reaction? sure. but an over reaction with history on its side.
they played stupid b-ball...
Lets call it what it is. How can you stand around on offense expecting something to just happen where you would receive a wide open shot? Mike Woodsen seems to like his six man rotation even when it’s not working. Who told Josh Smith he can shoot? If they think for once that they don’t need to change their thinking on offense and their bench rotation, there’s no need in believing they would go far in the playoffs.
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
They did what they are.
You know, all this is certainly true, Drew, but the Hawks are a team built on taking advantage of one-on-one matchups, and when they need a score, that is what they do. Go back and watch the Boston game, when it worked just perfectly; JJ and JC dribbling into the lane for runners they made or getting fouled.
Last night it failed miserably and illustrated the problem with this approach—not making shots can be contagious and the good teams often get the calls, or the no-calls, from the referees, and it can be a perfect storm of disaster in the right circumstances against the right team. Well, Orlando is that team, and they have shown repeatedly that they know what the Hawks are going to do in these situations and they are one of the few teams in the league that are athletic enough and long enough to shut down the one-on-one game. That’s why they got Carter when Turkoglu left, and that’s the effect of Lewis and Gortat and Howard.
Are the Magic better coached than the Hawks? Of course. Did the Hawks do anything strategically wrong last night? Not really, unless you realize that the Magic are a team the Hawks will not beat this way and that a new strategy is essential. Like, playing a simple inside-out team game, or a pick and roll game….anything.
Is that going to happen? Hell no. Who devises a strategy for one team when the current one works against almost everyone else?
How are we going to beat the Magic? They get in foul trouble. End of story.
i agree with almost everything you wrote
one on one basketball is not bad.
joe killed it playing one on one in the first half.
the problem is playing one on two, one on three. to take advantage of being a good one on one team, you beat them when they let you, but you make the extra pass when they double and triple you.
even beat your guy one on one, pass out of it when you get doubled, and get it back.
one could admit the magic are the better team and still say the Hawks can play their style of play better than they did on the second half.
and foul trouble was a good point by Woody except the Hawks shot jump shots and never gave the ball to Horford.
Against almost all teams there is a matchup to be exploited
but not against the Magic. So the Hawks often get away with NOT passing out of the double or triple team—you know we’ve all complained about it—but they keep doing it and winning anyway, or at least they pass out to Bibby or over to JS for the dunk just enough. But passing out of it is not their dominant m.o.
I really don’t think the Magic are the better team. They just have an approach the trumps the Hawks’, like rock/paper/scissors. If the Hawks want to beat the Magic they will have to become other than what they are.
And by "other than what they are"
I mean “pass out of the double-team first and fast,” not as a secondary effort when the one-on-one game has been shut down for a whole quarter or half.
I've said it before and I'll repeat it again
The Hawks can get away with passing Horford off as a center against 27 teams, they just can’t do it against teams that employ Shaq or Howard. Add to that an offense designed to lose to their defense and well…we know what happened.
More disturbing is how I see JC regressing to all the negative perceptions I’d heard before the season started. In that road Portland game, I remember being surprised because JC used that nasty crossover to lose his man and then attack the rim and thought wow wasn’t he supposed to be allergic to doing that?. He kept it up against Sacromento too, but since then he’s been using his crossover for pure, diabolical evil and taking the most inefficient shot on the floor.
I’m not even asking him to play defense, but he can clearly get to wherever he wants on the floor. Is it too hard for “wherever” to be “at the rim”? And yes, I realize there’s at least 3 other fanbases that have asked the same thing.
One good sign
When Marvin got two fouls before the second quarter, I was shocked to see Marv back in the game prior to halftime. Maybe Woody’s starting to be loosen up on foul count. Or he just doesn’t care if Marvin gets into foul trouble.
"On that note, Anthony Johnson looked like Kevin Johnson out there."
What does that mean? Kevin Johnson the boxer?
My thoughts are all jumbled
They played poorly in the second half and you listed pretty much every reason why. I’m glad I was at the game and didn’t have the luxury of listening to Coach Woodson’s third quarter analysis. If the coach and the players can’t identify the problems, then it doesn’t matter if we can. It was just one game, but it really did exaggerate the strengths and weaknesses of this team. The strange thing is their strengths and weaknesses are the same damn things. Sometimes it wins games, and sometimes it doesn’t as RBUBP pointed out.
These Hawks don't realize what they do well.
They just don’t.
They are not a jumpshooting team. They’ve connected on only 33.2% of their three point attempts this season. But when they get in trouble, they always attempt to shoot their way out of it. And worse, all of these jumpshots seem to come off the dribble. They have some good runs and spurts of playing one on one basketball, but it’s not where they make their hay.
The Hawks made 7 three pointers in this game. EVERY SINGLE THREE POINT MAKE WAS ASSISTED. The Hawks did not have anyone pull off a “Joe Johnson breaks James Posey’s ankles and steps back” type three. But trust me, pretty much everyone tried. Without having the game DVRed for me to go back over everything, I can’t be certain, but I think that the Hawks made 8 two point jumpshots (not counting runners, or hook shots), and 5 of those 8 were assisted. Conclusion: The Hawks are at their best when NOT creating their own shots.
Woodson says “we need to get into the bonus, fast.” That’s an admirable goal, but it doesn’t constitute a plan of any sort-how that is to be accomplished, how to get guys in positions to get fouled. And what follows is a deluge of chaotic basketball that spells out the fact that there is obviously no plan, no single organizing motif at all for what’s happening on the floor. And the result is that Hawks, in fact, don’t get into the bonus fast, nor at all. Orlando even ends the game with a foul to give. Again demonstrating my point that the Hawks just don’t know what what they do well.
Well, yes, certainly true on the "get to the bonus issue," but...
“jumpshooting” is not all three pointers. What do the Hawks do on unassisted twos? Out of the starting unit plus Crawford, Bibbly is the only one who really must rely on a spacing and a timely pass to get a good shot.
There are two other factors to consider:
1. The Magic boxed out. The Hawks have been living off of second chances, and in the second half Orlando shut that down in a way that few teams can (kinda goes back to my point about them matching the Hawks’ length and athleticism).
2. If Horford and Smith developed real post-up games they could command a double-team in the post that opened up shots on the perimeter. But neither is quite good enough against a frontcourt-heavy team like Orlando to abuse a single defender.
Not only is the Hawks’ plan a very simple one that can lead to a lot of standing around and over-dribbling in the half-court, they also appear to have no backup plan at all—and that might be the biggest problem against the league’s best teams.
’2. If Horford and Smith developed real post-up games they could command a double-team in the post that opened up shots on the perimeter. But neither is quite good enough against a frontcourt-heavy team like Orlando to abuse a single defender."
This where Marvin and Joe could be of better use—keep the same lineup but have them post up against their men, Joe’s at the 2 and Marvin’s at the 3. Joe does this often, but neither ho or Marvin are particularly good at passing out of the double-team that will come.
I don’t remember seeing this much last night, but I watched on a bizarre TNT broadband simulcast where the angles were from behind the basket. Did we attempt to post up Joe or Marvin on the low block at all?
Yes, Orlando played their part in boxing out
But these Hawks have won rebounding battles against other good rebounding teams (like Portland), and gotten plenty of second chance points. That’s largely due to the fact that they take shots which allow their frontcourt duo to attack the boards. When you’re taking and missing lots of jumpshots, you’re leaving a ton of rebounds in a position that Josh and Horford can’t track down even when they’re blocking out (sometimes, especially when they’re blocking out). It’s very unlikely that long rebounds end up in the hands of the center.
But concerning the Hawks’ midrange game-like I said, I’m pretty sure they had 8 makes, and 5 of those were assisted. The Hawks’ made 33 field goals, and 15 of those were either mid-range or three point jumpshots. 12 of those makes were assisted, which constitutes the vast majority. 33 of the Hawks’ 52 missed shots were jumpers-I didn’t DVR last nights’ game, so I can’t tell how many of those were created off the pass, but watching the game, it can’t have been a large percentage. The Hawks’ are a great team when they’ve got ball movement on offense, but invariably, when they get into trouble, ball movement grinds to a halt.
Additionally, I’m really finding JJ and Jamal wanting in the area of shot creation thus far in this young season. When those guys are driving toward the basket with authority, they’re able to score fairly successfully. But letting them dribble and then take jumpers almost always results in bad looks- the exception being JJ in the 4th quarter/OT of the Portland game. Their best shooting games are coming when the ball is worked inside-out or swung around like a cogent offensive concept.
One-on-one basketball is a fine thing when you’re aggressively attacking the basket. When the Hawks put on dribbling displays that result in long jump shots, they’re missing the vast majority of those shots. You can’t be a one-on-one team that also settles for a lot of jumpshots. Assuming you’re not dominating the post, you have to either
A) Choose to create jumpshots through penetration and/or screens and ball movement, or
B) Play one-on-one by attacking and driving to the basket, getting to line and scoring from in close.
Playing one-on-one to create jumpshots results in cold, cold shooting streaks like the 8-39 that the Hawks ended the game on.
Oh well
Hawks played a tough schedule and went 11-4, if we can beat the teams we’re supposed to beat (i.e. Josh continues to stay locked in) we’ll be 22-7 and we’ll forget this ever happened
Hopefully its not too late to put my two cents in
I am not going to blame Mike Woodson for this loss. I will say that this is a team full of veterans and they should be able to figure out how to work out their offensive woes within two quarters of a nationally televised home game.
Speaking of a nationally televised home game. The egg they laid in the third and fourth quarter is the exact reason why games hardly sell out and why we don’t have half as many nationally televised games as we should.
What person wants to pay money to go see their home team get BEAT on Thanksgiving night?
You know what might have stopped the bleeding last night. Putting Marvin Williams in the game for Bibby and letting Jamal run the point. Yes it might hinder ball movement, but it could only help on defense.
Was anybody else mentally drained by from watching four straight possessions of Iso Joe? Yes he gets fouled a lot, but eventually you have to count your losses and go with something else.
I guess the question really is what should that something else be?
I am just glad they can make it up tonight. I love back to backs.
Who else sees Jamal Crawford and Joe Johnson having an issue at the all star break?
Actually, he doesn't get fouled nearly as much as he should.
Would that he did. It would significantly improve his status as a go-guy.
i'm guessing...
From the comment on the pic at the top, that you would much want teague to have come in against anthony johnson’s “speed” to the hoop
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
You really gotta give it to SVG
He stuck with the hot hand last night. He left Jason Williams on the bench and VC too until the very end. Woody, on the other hand, is scared to bench anybody unless your name is Jeff. Why do we have Jason Collins? Is he hurt? Could he not have helped out a little last night with Howard?
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